THE WORKS
OF
_Robert G. Ingersoll_

"HAPPINESS IS THE ONLY GOOD, REASON THE ONLY
TORCH, JUSTICE THE ONLY WORSHIP, HUMANITY THE
ONLY RELIGION, AND LOVE THE ONLY PRIEST."

IN TWELVE VOLUMES
VOLUME VIII.

INTERVIEWS

NEW YORK
THE DRESDEN PUBLISHING CO.,
C. P. FARRELL
MCMXV
 

COPYRIGHT, 1900
BY
C. P. FARRELL

COPYRIGHT, 1901
BY
THE DRESDEN PUBLISHING CO.
[Frontispiece:  v8.jpg]
  "_With daughters' babes upon his knees,
   the white hair mingling with the gold_."
  EVA INGERSOLL-BROWN    ROBERT G. INGERSOLL BROWN.

CONTENTS OF VOLUME VIII.
INTERVIEWS.

THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE, Washington Post

MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST, Buffalo Express

EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION, Washington Post

THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE, Buffalo Express

THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION, Cincinnati Commercial

SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG, Pittsburg Leader

POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS, Chicago Times

POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT, Indianapolis Journal

POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE, Chicago Times

REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS, Chicago Tribune

THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY, New York Herald

INGERSOLL AND BEECHER, New York Herald

POLITICAL, Washington Post

RELIGION IN POLITICS, New York Evening Express

MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY, Pittsburg Dispatch

THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK, Cincinnati Commercial

MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO, Brooklyn Eagle

HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT, Brooklyn Eagle

A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING, New Haven Sunday Union

BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS, Brooklyn Eagle

ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS, Chicago Times

GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME, Washington Sunday Gazette

DISTRICT SUFFRAGE, Washington Capital

FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY, Washington Post

STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS, New York Herald

THE INTERVIEWER, New York Morning Journal

POLITICS AND PROHIBITION, Chicago Times

THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO, Dayton Democrat

THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, Washington National Republican

JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, Chicago Inter-Ocean

POLITICS AND THEOLOGY, Denver Tribune

MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY, Detroit News

POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER, Denver News

FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY, Denver Republican

THE OATH QUESTION, London Secular Review

WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK, Chicago Times

GENERAL SUBJECTS, Kansas City Times

REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY, Kansas City Journal

SWEARING AND AFFIRMING, Buffalo Courier

REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC, Buffalo Times

BLASPHEMY, Philadelphia Press

POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA, San Francisco Evening Post

INGERSOLL CATECHISED, San Francisco San Franciscan

BLAINE'S DEFEAT, Topeka Commonwealth

BLAINE'S DEFEAT, Louisville Commercial

PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS, Cleveland Plain Dealer

RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE, New York Mail and Express

CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET, New York Mail and Express

RELIGION, PROHIBITION AND GEN. GRANT, Iowa State Register

HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS, Boston Evening Record

INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM, Cleveland Plain Dealer

MY BELIEF, Philadelphia Times

SOME LIVE TOPICS, New York Truth Seeker

THE PRESIDENT AND THE SENATE, Chicago Inter-Ocean

ATHEISM AND CITIZENSHIP, New York Herald

THE LABOR QUESTION, Cincinnati Enquirer

RAILROADS AND POLITICS, Cincinnati Times Star

PROHIBITION, Boston Evening Traveler

HENRY GEORGE AND LABOR, New York Herald

LABOR QUESTION AND SOCIALISM, New York World

HENRY GEORGE AND SOCIALISM, Chicago Times

REPLY TO THE REV. B. F. MORSE, New York Herald

INGERSOLL ON McGLYNN, Brooklyn Citizen

TRIAL OF THE CHICAGO ANARCHISTS, New York Mail and Express

THE STAGE AND THE PULPIT, New York Truth Seeker

ROSCOE CONKLING, New York Herald

THE CHURCH AND THE STATE, New York Dramatic Mirror

PROTECTION--FREE TRADE, New York Press

LABOR AND TARIFF REFORM, New York Press

CLEVELAND AND THURMAN, New York Press

THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM OF 1888, New York Press

JAMES G. BLAINE AND POLITICS, New York Press

THE MILLS BILL, New York Press

SOCIETY AND ITS CRIMINALS, New York World

WOMAN'S RIGHT TO DIVORCE, New York World

SECULARISM, Toronto Secular Thought

SUMMER RECREATION--MR. GLADSTONE, Unpublished

PROHIBITION, New York World

ROBERT ELSMERE, New York World

WORKING GIRLS, New York World

PROTECTION FOR AMERICAN ACTORS, New York Star

LIBERALS AND LIBERALISM, Toronto Secular Thought

POPE LEO XIII., New York Herald

THE SACREDNESS OF THE SABBATH, New York Journal

THE WEST AND SOUTH, Indianapolis Journal

THE WESTMINSTER CREED AND OTHER SUBJECTS, Rochester Post-Express

SHAKESPEARE AND BACON, Minneapolis Tribune

GROWING OLD GRACEFULLY, AND PRESBYTERIANISM, Toledo Blade

CREEDS, New York Morning Advertiser

THE TENDENCY OF MODERN THOUGHT, Chicago Tribune

WOMAN SUFFRAGE, HORSE RACING, AND MONEY, Chicago Inter-Ocean

MISSIONARIES, Cleveland Press

MY BELIEF AND UNBELIEF, Toledo Blade

MUST RELIGION GO? New York Evening Advertiser

WORD PAINTING AND COLLEGE EDUCATION, Indianapolis News

PERSONAL MAGNETISM AND THE SUNDAY QUESTION, Cincinnati Commercial
  Gazette

AUTHORS, Kansas City Star

INEBRIETY, Unpublished

MIRACLES, THEOSOPHY AND SPIRITUALISM, Unpublished

TOLSTOY AND LITERATURE, Buffalo Evening Express

WOMAN IN POLITICS, New York Advertiser

SPIRITUALISM, St. Louis Globe-Democrat

PLAYS AND PLAYERS, New York Dramatic Mirror

WOMAN, A Fragment

STRIKES, EXPANSION AND OTHER SUBJECTS, New York, May 5, 1893

SUNDAY A DAY OF PLEASURE, New York Times

THE PARLIAMENT OF RELIGIONS, New York Herald

CLEVELAND'S HAWAIIAN POLICY, Chicago Inter-Ocean

ORATORS AND ORATORY, London Sketch

CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM.--THE POPE.--THE A. P. A., AGNOSTICISM
  AND THE CHURCH, New York Herald

WOMAN AND HER DOMAIN, Grand Rapids Democrat

PROFESSOR SWING, Chicago Inter-Ocean

SENATOR SHERMAN AND HIS BOOK, St. Louis Globe-Democrat

REPLY TO THE CHRISTIAN ENDEAVORERS, New York Journal

SPIRITUALISM, New York Journal

A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING, Rochester Herald

IS LIFE WORTH LIVING?--CHRISTIAN SCIENCE AND POLITICS, Chicago
  Inter-Ocean

VIVISECTION, New York Evening Telegram

DIVORCE, New York Herald

MUSIC, NEWSPAPERS, LYNCHING AND ARBITRATION, Chicago Inter-Ocean

A VISIT TO SHAW'S GARDEN, St. Louis Republic

THE VENEZUELA BOUNDARY DISCUSSION AND THE WHIPPING POST, New York
  Journal

COLONEL SHEPARD'S STAGE HORSES, New York Morning Advertiser

A REPLY TO THE REV. L. A. BANKS, Cleveland Plain Dealer

CUBA--ZOLA AND THEOSOPHY, Louisville Courier-Journal

HOW TO BECOME AN ORATOR, New York Sun

JOHN RUSSELL YOUNG AND EXPANSION, Philadelphia Press

PSYCHICAL RESEARCH AND THE BIBLE, New York Mind

THIS CENTURY'S GLORIES, New York Sun

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND THE WHIPPING POST, Chicago Tribune

EXPANSION AND TRUSTS, Philadelphia North American
 

INTERVIEWS
 

THE BIBLE AND A FUTURE LIFE

_Question_.  Colonel, are your views of religion based upon the
Bible?

_Answer_.  I regard the Bible, especially the Old Testament, the
same as I do most other ancient books, in which there is some truth,
a great deal of error, considerable barbarism and a most plentiful
lack of good sense.

_Question_.  Have you found any other work, sacred or profane,
which you regard as more reliable?

_Answer_.  I know of no book less so, in my judgment.

_Question_.  You have studied the Bible attentively, have you not?

_Answer_.  I have read the Bible.  I have heard it talked about a
good deal, and am sufficiently well acquainted with it to justify
my own mind in utterly rejecting all claims made for its divine
origin.

_Question_.  What do you base your views upon?

_Answer_.  On reason, observation, experience, upon the discoveries
in science, upon observed facts and the analogies properly growing
out of such facts.  I have no confidence in anything pretending to
be outside, or independent of, or in any manner above nature.

_Question_.  According to your views, what disposition is made of
man after death?

_Answer_.  Upon that subject I know nothing.  It is no more wonderful
that man should live again than he now lives; upon that question
I know of no evidence.  The doctrine of immortality rests upon
human affection.  We love, therefore we wish to live.

_Question_.  Then you would not undertake to say what becomes of
man after death?

_Answer_.  If I told or pretended to know what becomes of man after
death, I would be as dogmatic as are theologians upon this question.
The difference between them and me is, I am honest.  I admit that
I do not know.

_Question_.  Judging by your criticism of mankind, Colonel, in your
recent lecture, you have not found his condition very satisfactory?

_Answer_.  Nature, outside of man, so far as I know, is neither
cruel nor merciful.  I am not satisfied with the present condition
of the human race, nor with the condition of man during any period
of which we have any knowledge.  I believe, however, the condition
of man is improved, and this improvement is due to his own exertions.
I do not make nature a being.  I do not ascribe to nature
intentions.

_Question_.  Is your theory, Colonel, the result of investigation
of the subject?

_Answer_.  No one can control his own opinion or his own belief.
My belief was forced upon me by my surroundings.  I am the product
of all circumstances that have in any way touched me.  I believe
in this world.  I have no confidence in any religion promising joys
in another world at the expense of liberty and happiness in this.
At the same time, I wish to give others all the rights I claim for
myself.

_Question_.  If I asked for proofs for your theory, what would you
furnish?

_Answer_.  The experience of every man who is honest with himself,
every fact that has been discovered in nature.  In addition to
these, the utter and total failure of all religionists in all
countries to produce one particle of evidence showing the existence
of any supernatural power whatever, and the further fact that the
people are not satisfied with their religion.  They are continually
asking for evidence.  They are asking it in every imaginable way.
The sects are continually dividing.  There is no real religious
serenity in the world.  All religions are opponents of intellectual
liberty.  I believe in absolute mental freedom.  Real religion with
me is a thing not of the head, but of the heart; not a theory, not
a creed, but a life.

_Question_.  What punishment, then, is inflicted upon man for his
crimes and wrongs committed in this life?

_Answer_.  There is no such thing as intellectual crime.  No man
can commit a mental crime.  To become a crime it must go beyond
thought.

_Question_.  What punishment is there for physical crime?

_Answer_.  Such punishment as is necessary to protect society and
for the reformation of the criminal.

_Question_.  If there is only punishment in this world, will not
some escape punishment?

_Answer_.  I admit that all do not seem to be punished as they
deserve.  I also admit that all do not seem to be rewarded as they
deserve; and there is in this world, apparently, as great failures
in matter of reward as in matter of punishment.  If there is another
life, a man will be happier there for acting according to his
highest ideal in this.  But I do not discern in nature any effort
to do justice.

--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., 1878.
 

MRS. VAN COTT, THE REVIVALIST

_Question_.  I see, Colonel, that in an interview published this
morning, Mrs. Van Cott (the revivalist), calls you "a poor barking
dog."  Do you know her personally?

_Answer_.  I have never met or seen her.

_Question_.  Do you know the reason she applied the epithet?

_Answer_.  I suppose it to be the natural result of what is called
vital piety; that is to say, universal love breeds individual
hatred.

_Question_.  Do you intend making any reply to what she says?

_Answer_.  I have written her a note of which this is a copy:

  _Buffalo, Feb. 24th, 1878._
MRS. VAN COTT;

My dear Madam:--Were you constrained by the love of Christ to call
a man who has never injured you "a poor barking dog?"  Did you make
this remark as a Christian, or as a lady?  Did you say these words
to illustrate in some faint degree the refining influence upon
women of the religion you preach?

What would you think of me if I should retort, using your language,
changing only the sex of the last word?

I have the honor to remain,

Yours truly,

R. G. INGERSOLL

_Question_.  Well, what do you think of the religious revival system
generally?

_Answer_.  The fire that has to be blown all the time is a poor
thing to get warm by.  I regard these revivals as essentially
barbaric.  I think they do no good, but much harm, they make innocent
people think they are guilty, and very mean people think they are
good.

_Question_.  What is your opinion concerning women as conductors
of these revivals?

_Answer_.  I suppose those engaged in them think they are doing
good.  They are probably honest.  I think, however, that neither
men nor women should be engaged in frightening people into heaven.
That is all I wish to say on the subject, as I do not think it
worth talking about.

--_The Express_, Buffalo, New York, Feb., 1878.
 

EUROPEAN TRIP AND GREENBACK QUESTION

_Question_.  What did you do on your European trip, Colonel?

_Answer_.  I went with my family from New York to Southampton,
England, thence to London, and from London to Edinburgh.  In Scotland
I visited every place where Burns had lived, from the cottage where
he was born to the room where he died.  I followed him from the
cradle to the coffin.  I went to Stratford-upon-Avon for the purpose
of seeing all that I could in any way connected with Shakespeare;
next to London, where we visited again all the places of interest,
and thence to Paris, where we spent a couple of weeks in the
Exposition.

_Question_.  And what did you think of it?

_Answer_.  So far as machinery--so far as the practical is concerned,
it is not equal to ours in Philadelphia; in art it is incomparably
beyond it.  I was very much gratified to find so much evidence in
favor of my theory that the golden age in art is in front of us;
that mankind has been advancing, that we did not come from a perfect
pair and immediately commence to degenerate.  The modern painters
and sculptors are far better and grander than the ancient.  I think
we excel in fine arts as much as we do in agricultural implements.
Nothing pleased me more than the painting from Holland, because
they idealized and rendered holy the ordinary avocations of life.
They paint cottages with sweet mothers and children; they paint
homes.  They are not much on Ariadnes and Venuses, but they paint
good women.

_Question_.  What did you think of the American display?

_Answer_.  Our part of the Exposition is good, but nothing to what
is should and might have been, but we bring home nearly as many
medals as we took things.  We lead the world in machinery and in
ingenious inventions, and some of our paintings were excellent.

_Question_.  Colonel, crossing the Atlantic back to America, what
do you think of the Greenback movement?

_Answer_.  In regard to the Greenback party, in the first place,
I am not a believer in miracles.  I do not believe that something
can be made out of nothing.  The Government, in my judgment, cannot
create money; the Government can give its note, like an individual,
and the prospect of its being paid determines its value.  We have
already substantially resumed.  Every piece of property that has
been shrinking has simply been resuming.  We expended during the
war--not for the useful, but for the useless, not to build up, but
to destroy--at least one thousand million dollars.  The Government
was an enormous purchaser; when the war ceased the industries of
the country lost their greatest customer.  As a consequence there
was a surplus of production, and consequently a surplus of labor.
At last we have gotten back, and the country since the war has
produced over and above the cost of production, something near the
amount that was lost during the war.  Our exports are about two
hundred million dollars more than our imports, and this is a healthy
sign.  There are, however, five or six hundred thousand men,
probably, out of employment; as prosperity increases this number
will decrease.  I am in favor of the Government doing something to
ameliorate the condition of these men.  I would like to see
constructed the Northern and Southern Pacific railroads; this would
give employment at once to many thousands, and homes after awhile
to millions.  All the signs of the times to me are good.  The
wretched bankrupt law, at last, is wiped from the statute books,
and honest people in a short time can get plenty of credit.  This
law should have been repealed years before it was.  It would have
been far better to have had all who have gone into bankruptcy during
these frightful years to have done so at once.

_Question_.  What will be the political effect of the Greenback
movement?

_Answer_.  The effect in Maine has been to defeat the Republican
party.  I do not believe any party can permanently succeed in the
United States that does not believe in and advocate actual money.
I want to see the greenback equal with gold the world round.  A
money below par keeps the people below par.  No man can possibly
be proud of a country that is not willing to pay its debts.  Several
of the States this fall may be carried by the Greenback party, but
if I have a correct understanding of their views, that party cannot
hold any State for any great length of time.  But all the men of
wealth should remember that everybody in the community has got, in
some way, to be supported.  I want to see them so that they can
support themselves by their own labor.  In my judgment real prosperity
will begin with actual resumption, because confidence will then
return.  If the workingmen of the United States cannot make their
living, cannot have the opportunity to labor, they have got to be
supported in some way, and in any event, I want to see a liberal
policy inaugurated by the Government.  I believe in improving rivers
and harbors.

I do not believe the trans-continental commerce of this country
should depend on one railroad.  I want new territories opened.  I
want to see American steamships running to all the great ports of
the world.  I want to see our flag flying on all the seas and in
all the harbors.  We have the best country, and, in my judgment,
the best people in the world, and we ought to be the most prosperous
nation on the earth.

_Question_.  Then you only consider the Greenback movement a
temporary thing?

_Answer_.  Yes; I do not believe that there is anything permanent
in anything that is not sound, that has not a perfectly sound
foundation, and I mean sound, sound in every sense of that word.
It must be wise and honest.  We have plenty of money; the trouble
is to get it.  If the Greenbackers will pass a law furnishing all
of us with collaterals, there certainly would be no trouble about
getting the money.  Nothing can demonstrate more fully the
plentifulness of money than the fact that millions of four per
cent. bonds have been taken in the United States.  The trouble is,
business is scarce.

_Question_.  But do you not think the Greenback movement will help
the Democracy to success in 1880?

_Answer_.  I think the Greenback movement will injure the Republican
party much more than the Democratic party.  Whether that injury
will reach as far as 1880 depends simply upon one thing.  If
resumption--in spite of all the resolutions to the contrary--
inaugurates an era of prosperity, as I believe and hope it will,
then it seems to me that the Republican party will be as strong in
the North as in its palmiest days.  Of course I regard most of the
old issues as settled, and I make this statement simply because I
regard the financial issue as the only living one.

Of course, I have no idea who will be the Democratic candidate,
but I suppose the South will be solid for the Democratic nominee,
unless the financial question divides that section of the country.

_Question_.  With a solid South do you not think the Democratic
nominee will stand a good chance?

_Answer_.  Certainly, he will stand the best chance if the Democracy
is right on the financial question; if it will cling to its old
idea of hard money, he will.  If the Democrats will recognize that
the issues of the war are settled, then I think that party has the
best chance.

_Question_.  But if it clings to soft money?

_Answer_.  Then I think it will be beaten, if by soft money it
means the payment of one promise with another.

_Question_.  You consider Greenbackers inflationists, do you not?

_Answer_.  I suppose the Greenbackers to be the party of inflation.
I am in favor of inflation produced by industry.  I am in favor of
the country being inflated with corn, with wheat, good houses,
books, pictures, and plenty of labor for everybody.  I am in favor
of being inflated with gold and silver, but I do not believe in
the inflation of promise, expectation and speculation.  I sympathize
with every man who is willing to work and cannot get it, and I
sympathize to that degree that I would like to see the fortunate
and prosperous taxed to support his unfortunate brother until labor
could be found.

The Greenback party seems to think credit is just as good as gold.
While the credit lasts this is so; but the trouble is, whenever it
is ascertained that the gold is gone or cannot be produced the
credit takes wings.  The bill of a perfectly solvent bank may
circulate for years.  Now, because nobody demands the gold on that
bill it doesn't follow that the bill would be just as good without
any gold behind it.  The idea that you can have the gold whenever
you present the bill gives it its value.  To illustrate:  A poor
man buys soup tickets.  He is not hungry at the time of purchase,
and will not be for some hours.  During those hours the Greenback
gentlemen argue that there is no use of keeping any soup on hand
with which to redeem these tickets, and from this they further
argue that if they can be good for a few hours without soup, why
not forever?  And they would be, only the holder gets hungry.
Until he is hungry, of course, he does not care whether any soup
is on hand or not, but when he presents his ticket he wants his
soup, and the idea that he can have the soup when he does present
the ticket gives it its value.  And so I regard bank notes, without
gold and silver, as of the same value as tickets without soup.

--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., 1878.
 

THE PRE-MILLENNIAL CONFERENCE.

_Question_.  What do you think of the Pre-Millennial Conference
that was held in New York City recently?

_Answer_.  Well, I think that all who attended it were believers
in the Bible, and any one who believes in prophecies and looks to
their fulfillment will go insane.  A man that tries from Daniel's
ram with three horns and five tails and his deformed goats to
ascertain the date of the second immigration of Christ to this
world is already insane.  It all shows that the moment we leave
the realm of fact and law we are adrift on the wide and shoreless
sea of theological speculation.

_Question_.  Do you think there will be a second coming?

_Answer_.  No, not as long as the church is in power.  Christ will
never again visit this earth until the Freethinkers have control.
He will certainly never allow another church to get hold of him.
The very persons who met in New York to fix the date of his coming
would despise him and the feeling would probably be mutual.  In
his day Christ was an Infidel, and made himself unpopular by
denouncing the church as it then existed.  He called them liars,
hypocrites, thieves, vipers, whited sepulchres and fools.  From
the description given of the church in that day, I am afraid that
should he come again, he would be provoked into using similar
language.  Of course, I admit there are many good people in the
church, just as there were some good Pharisees who were opposed to
the crucifixion.

--_The Express_, Buffalo, New York, Nov. 4th, 1878.
 

THE SOLID SOUTH AND RESUMPTION.

_Question_.  Colonel, to start with, what do you think of the solid
South?

_Answer_.  I think the South is naturally opposed to the Republican
party; more, I imagine, to the name, than to the personnel of the
organization.  But the South has just as good friends in the
Republican party as in the Democratic party.  I do not think there
are any Republicans who would not rejoice to see the South prosperous
and happy.  I know of none, at least.  They will have to get over
the prejudices born of isolation.  We lack direct and constant
communication.  I do not recollect having seen a newspaper from
the Gulf States for a long time.  They, down there, may imagine
that the feeling in the North is the same as during the war.  But
it certainly is not.  The Northern people are anxious to be friendly;
and if they can be, without a violation of their principles, they
will be.  Whether it be true or not, however, most of the Republicans
of the North believe that no Republican in the South is heartily
welcome in that section, whether he goes there from the North, or
is a Southern man.  Personally, I do not care anything about partisan
politics.  I want to see every man in the United States guaranteed
the right to express his choice at the ballot-box, and I do not
want social ostracism to follow a man, no matter how he may vote.
A solid South means a solid North.  A hundred thousand Democratic
majority in South Carolina means fifty thousand Republican majority
in New York in 1880.  I hope the sections will never divide, simply
as sections.  But if the Republican party is not allowed to live
in the South, the Democratic party certainly will not be allowed
to succeed in the North.  I want to treat the people of the South
precisely as though the Rebellion had never occurred.  I want all
that wiped from the slate of memory, and all I ask of the Southern
people is to give the same rights to the Republicans that we are
willing to give to them and have given to them.

_Question_.  How do you account for the results of the recent
elections?

_Answer_.  The Republican party won the recent election simply
because it was for honest money, and it was in favor of resumption.
And if on the first of January next, we resume all right, and
maintain resumption, I see no reason why the Republican party should
not succeed in 1880.  The Republican party came into power at the
commencement of the Rebellion, and necessarily retained power until
its close; and in my judgment, it will retain power so long as in
the horizon of credit there is a cloud of repudiation as large as
a man's hand.

_Question_.  Do you think resumption will work out all right?

_Answer_.  I do.  I think that on the first of January the greenback
will shake hands with gold on an equality, and in a few days
thereafter will be worth just a little bit more.  Everything has
resumed, except the Government.  All the property has resumed, all
the lands, bonds and mortgages and stocks.  All these things resumed
long ago--that is to say, they have touched the bottom.  Now, there
is no doubt that the party that insists on the Government paying
all its debts will hold control, and no one will get his hand on
the wheel who advocates repudiation in any form.  There is one
thing we must do, though.  We have got to put more silver in our
dollars.  I do not think you can blame the New York banks--any bank
--for refusing to take eighty-eight cents for a dollar.  Neither
can you blame any depositor who puts gold in the bank for demanding
gold in return.  Yes, we must have in the silver dollar a dollar's
worth of silver.

--_The Commercial_, Cincinnati, Ohio, November, 1878.
 

THE SUNDAY LAWS OF PITTSBURG.*

_Question_.  Colonel, what do you think of the course the Mayor
has pursued toward you in attempting to stop your lecture?

_Answer_.  I know very little except what I have seen in the morning
paper.  As a general rule, laws should be enforced or repealed;
and so far as I am personally concerned, I shall not so much complain
of the enforcing of the law against Sabbath breaking as of the fact
that such a law exists.  We have fallen heir to these laws.  They
were passed by superstition, and the enlightened people of to-day
should repeal them.  Ministers should not expect to fill their
churches by shutting up other places.  They can only increase their
congregations by improving their sermons.  They will have more
hearers when they say more worth hearing.  I have no idea that the
Mayor has any prejudice against me personally and if he only enforces
the law, I shall have none against him.  If my lectures were free
the ministers might have the right to object, but as I charge one
dollar admission and they nothing, they ought certainly be able to
compete with me.

_Question_.  Don't you think it is the duty of the Mayor, as chief
executive of the city laws, to enforce the ordinances and pay no
attention to what the statutes say?

_Answer_.  I suppose it to be the duty of the Mayor to enforce the
ordinance of the city and if the ordinance of the city covers the
same ground as the law of the State, a conviction under the ordinance
would be a bar to prosecution under the State law.

_Question_.  If the ordinance exempts scientific, literary and
historical lectures, as it is said it does, will not that exempt
you?

_Answer_.  Yes, all my lectures are historical; that is, I speak
of many things that have happened.  They are scientific because
they are filled with facts, and they are literary of course.  I
can conceive of no address that is neither historical nor scientific,
except sermons.  They fail to be historical because they treat of
things that never happened and they are certainly not scientific,
as they contain no facts.

_Question_.  Suppose they arrest you what will you do?

_Answer_.  I will examine the law and if convicted will pay the
fine, unless I think I can reverse the case by appeal.  Of course
I would like to see all these foolish laws wiped from the statute
books.  I want the law so that everybody can do just as he pleases
on Sunday, provided he does not interfere with the rights of others.
I want the Christian, the Jew, the Deist and the Atheist to be
exactly equal before the law.  I would fight for the right of the
Christian to worship God in his own way just as quick as I would
for the Atheist to enjoy music, flowers and fields.  I hope to see
the time when even the poor people can hear the music of the finest
operas on Sunday.  One grand opera with all its thrilling tones,
will do more good in touching and elevating the world than ten
thousand sermons on the agonies of hell.

_Question_.  Have you ever been interfered with before in delivering
Sunday lectures?

_Answer_.  No, I postponed a lecture in Baltimore at the request
of the owners of a theatre because they were afraid some action
might be taken.  That is the only case.  I have delivered lectures
on Sunday in the principal cities of the United States, in New
York, Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, San Francisco, Cincinnati and many
other places.  I lectured here last winter; it was on Sunday and
I heard nothing of its being contrary to law.  I always supposed
my lectures were good enough to be delivered on the most sacred
days.

--_The Leader_, Pittsburg, Pa., October 27, 1879.

[* The manager of the theatre, where Col. Ingersoll lectured, was fined
fifty dollars which Col. Ingersoll paid.]
 

POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS.

_Question_.  What do you think about the recent election, and what
will be its effect upon political matters and the issues and
candidates of 1880?

_Answer_.  I think the Republicans have met with this almost
universal success on account, first, of the position taken by the
Democracy on the currency question; that is to say, that party was
divided, and was willing to go in partnership with anybody, whatever
their doctrines might be, for the sake of success in that particular
locality.  The Republican party felt it of paramount importance
not only to pay the debt, but to pay it in that which the world
regards as money.  The next reason for the victory is the position
assumed by the Democracy in Congress during the called session.
The threats they then made of what they would do in the event that
the executive did not comply with their demands, showed that the
spirit of the party had not been chastened to any considerable
extent by the late war.  The people of this country will not, in
my judgment, allow the South to take charge of this country until
they show their ability to protect the rights of citizens in their
respective States.

_Question_.  Then, as you regard the victories, they are largely
due to a firm adherence to principle, and the failure of the
Democratic party is due to their abandonment of principle, and
their desire to unite with anybody and everything, at the sacrifice
of principle, to attain success?

_Answer_.  Yes.  The Democratic party is a general desire for office
without organization.  Most people are Democrats because they hate
something, most people are Republicans because they love something.

_Question_.  Do you think the election has brought about any
particular change in the issues that will be involved in the campaign
of 1880?

_Answer_.  I think the only issue is who shall rule the country.

_Question_.  Do you think, then, the question of State Rights, hard
or soft money and other questions that have been prominent in the
campaign are practically settled, and so regarded by the people?

_Answer_.  I think the money question is, absolutely.  I think the
question of State Rights is dead, except that it can still be used
to defeat the Democracy.  It is what might be called a convenient
political corpse.

_Question_.  Now, to leave the political field and go to the
religious at one jump--since your last visit here much has been
said and written and published to the effect that a great change,
or a considerable change at least, had taken place in your religious,
or irreligious views.  I would like to know if that is so?

_Answer_.  The only change that has occurred in my religious views
is the result of finding more and more arguments in favor of my
position, and, as a consequence, if there is any difference, I am
stronger in my convictions than ever before.

_Question_.  I would like to know something of the history of your
religious views?

_Answer_.  I may say right here that the Christian idea that any
God can make me his friend by killing mine is about a great mistake
as could be made.  They seem to have the idea that just as soon as
God kills all the people that a person loves, he will then begin
to love the Lord.  What drew my attention first to these questions
was the doctrine of eternal punishment.  This was so abhorrent to
my mind that I began to hate the book in which it was taught.
Then, in reading law, going back to find the origin of laws, I
found one had to go but a little way before the legislator and
priest united.  This led me to a study of a good many of the
religions of the world.  At first I was greatly astonished to find
most of them better than ours.  I then studied our own system to
the best of my ability, and found that people were palming off upon
children and upon one another as the inspired word of God a book
that upheld slavery, polygamy and almost every other crime.  Whether
I am right or wrong, I became convinced that the Bible is not an
inspired book; and then the only question for me to settle was as
to whether I should say what I believed or not.  This really was
not the question in my mind, because, before even thinking of such
a question, I expressed my belief, and I simply claim that right
and expect to exercise it as long as I live.  I may be damned for
it in the next world, but it is a great source of pleasure to me
in this.

_Question_.  It is reported that you are the son of a Presbyterian
minister?

_Answer_.  Yes, I am the son of a New School Presbyterian minister.

_Question_.  About what age were you when you began this investigation
which led to your present convictions?

_Answer_.  I cannot remember when I believed the Bible doctrine of
eternal punishment.  I have a dim recollection of hating Jehovah
when I was exceedingly small.

_Question_.  Then your present convictions began to form themselves
while you were listening to the teachings of religion as taught by
your father?

_Answer_.  Yes, they did.

_Question_.  Did you discuss the matter with him?

_Answer_.  I did for many years, and before he died he utterly gave
up the idea that this life is a period of probation.  He utterly
gave up the idea of eternal punishment, and before he died he had
the happiness of believing that God was almost as good and generous
as he was himself.

_Question_.  I suppose this gossip about a change in your religious
views arose or was created by the expression used at your brother's
funeral, "In the night of death hope sees a star and listening love
can hear the rustle of a wing"?

_Answer_.  I never willingly will destroy a solitary human hope.
I have always said that I did not know whether man was or was not
immortal, but years before my brother died, in a lecture entitled
"The Ghosts," which has since been published, I used the following
words:  "The idea of immortality, that like a sea has ebbed and
flowed in the human heart, with its countless waves of hope and
fear, beating against the shores and rocks of time and fate, was
not born of any book, nor of any creed, nor of any religion.  It
was born of human affection, and it will continue to ebb and flow
beneath the mists and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love
kisses the lips of death.  It is the rainbow--Hope, shining upon
the tears of grief."

_Question_.  The great objection to your teaching urged by your
enemies is that you constantly tear down, and never build up?

_Answer_.  I have just published a little book entitled, "Some
Mistakes of Moses," in which I have endeavored to give most of the
arguments I have urged against the Pentateuch in a lecture I
delivered under that title.  The motto on the title page is, "A
destroyer of weeds, thistles and thorns is a benefactor, whether
he soweth grain or not."  I cannot for my life see why one should
be charged with tearing down and not rebuilding simply because he
exposes a sham, or detects a lie.  I do not feel under any obligation
to build something in the place of a detected falsehood.  All I
think I am under obligation to put in the place of a detected lie
is the detection.  Most religionists talk as if mistakes were
valuable things and they did not wish to part with them without a
consideration.  Just how much they regard lies worth a dozen I do
not know.  If the price is reasonable I am perfectly willing to
give it, rather than to see them live and give their lives to the
defence of delusions.  I am firmly convinced that to be happy here
will not in the least detract from our happiness in another world
should we be so fortunate as to reach another world; and I cannot
see the value of any philosophy that reaches beyond the intelligent
happiness of the present.  There may be a God who will make us
happy in another world.  If he does, it will be more than he has
accomplished in this.  I suppose that he will never have more than
infinite power and never have less than infinite wisdom, and why
people should expect that he should do better in another world than
he has in this is something that I have never been able to explain.
A being who has the power to prevent it and yet who allows thousands
and millions of his children to starve; who devours them with
earthquakes; who allows whole nations to be enslaved, cannot in my
judgment be implicitly be depended upon to do justice in another
world.

_Question_.  How do the clergy generally treat you?

_Answer_.  Well, of course there are the same distinctions among
clergymen as among other people.  Some of them are quite respectable
gentlemen, especially those with whom I am not acquainted.  I think
that since the loss of my brother nothing could exceed the
heartlessness of the remarks made by the average clergyman.  There
have been some noble exceptions, to whom I feel not only thankful
but grateful; but a very large majority have taken this occasion
to say most unfeeling and brutal things.  I do not ask the clergy
to forgive me, but I do request that they will so act that I will
not have to forgive them.  I have always insisted that those who
love their enemies should at least tell the truth about their
friends, but I suppose, after all, that religion must be supported
by the same means as those by which it was founded.  Of course,
there are thousands of good ministers, men who are endeavoring to
make the world better, and whose failure is no particular fault of
their own.  I have always been in doubt as to whether the clergy
were a necessary or an unnecessary evil.

_Question_.  I would like to have a positive expression of your
views as to a future state?

_Answer_.  Somebody asked Confucius about another world, and his
reply was:  "How should I know anything about another world when
I know so little of this?"  For my part, I know nothing of any
other state of existence, either before or after this, and I have
never become personally acquainted with anybody that did.  There
may be another life, and if there is, the best way to prepare for
it is by making somebody happy in this.  God certainly cannot afford
to put a man in hell who has made a little heaven in this world.
I propose simply to take my chances with the rest of the folks,
and prepare to go where the people I am best acquainted with will
probably settle.  I cannot afford to leave the great ship and sneak
off to shore in some orthodox canoe.  I hope there is another life,
for I would like to see how things come out in the world when I am
dead.  There are some people I would like to see again, and hope
there are some who would not object to seeing me; but if there is
no other life I shall never know it.  I do not remember a time when
I did not exist; and if, when I die, that is the end, I shall not
know it, because the last thing I shall know is that I am alive,
and if nothing is left, nothing will be left to know that I am
dead; so that so far as I am concerned I am immortal; that is to
say, I cannot recollect when I did not exist, and there never will
be a time when I shall remember that I do not exist.  I would like
to have several millions of dollars, and I may say that I have a
lively hope that some day I may be rich, but to tell you the truth
I have very little evidence of it.  Our hope of immortality does
not come from any religion, but nearly all religions come from that
hope.  The Old Testament, instead of telling us that we are immortal,
tells us how we lost immortality.  You will recollect that if Adam
and Eve could have gotten to the Tree of Life, they would have
eaten of its fruit and would have lived forever; but for the purpose
of preventing immortality God turned them out of the Garden of
Eden, and put certain angels with swords or sabres at the gate to
keep them from getting back.  The Old Testament proves, if it proves
anything--which I do not think it does--that there is no life after
this; and the New Testament is not very specific on the subject.
There were a great many opportunities for the Saviour and his
apostles to tell us about another world, but they did not improve
them to any great extent; and the only evidence, so far as I know,
about another life is, first, that we have no evidence; and,
secondly, that we are rather sorry that we have not, and wish we
had.  That is about my position.

_Question_.  According to your observation of men, and your reading
in relation to the men and women of the world and of the church,
if there is another world divided according to orthodox principles
between the orthodox and heterodox, which of the two that are known
as heaven and hell would contain, in your judgment, the most good
society?

_Answer_.  Since hanging has got to be a means of grace, I would
prefer hell.  I had a thousand times rather associate with the
Pagan philosophers than with the inquisitors of the Middle Ages.
I certainly should prefer the worst man in Greek or Roman history
to John Calvin; and I can imagine no man in the world that I would
not rather sit on the same bench with than the Puritan fathers and
the founders of orthodox churches.  I would trade off my harp any
minute for a seat in the other country.  All the poets will be in
perdition, and the greatest thinkers, and, I should think, most of
the women whose society would tend to increase the happiness of
man; nearly all the painters, nearly all the sculptors, nearly all
the writers of plays, nearly all the great actors, most of the best
musicians, and nearly all the good fellows--the persons who know
stories, who can sing songs, or who will loan a friend a dollar.
They will mostly all be in that country, and if I did not live
there permanently, I certainly would want it so I could spend my
winter months there.  But, after all, what I really want to do is
to destroy the idea of eternal punishment.  That doctrine subverts
all ideas of justice.  That doctrine fills hell with honest men,
and heaven with intellectual and moral paupers.  That doctrine
allows people to sin on credit.  That doctrine allows the basest
to be eternally happy and the most honorable to suffer eternal
pain.  I think of all doctrines it is the most infinitely infamous,
and would disgrace the lowest savage; and any man who believes it,
and has imagination enough to understand it, has the heart of a
serpent and the conscience of a hyena.

_Question_.  Your objective point is to destroy the doctrine of
hell, is it?

_Answer_.  Yes, because the destruction of that doctrine will do
away with all cant and all pretence.  It will do away with all
religious bigotry and persecution.  It will allow every man to
think and to express his thought.  It will do away with bigotry in
all its slimy and offensive forms.

--_Chicago Tribune_, November 14, 1879.
 

POLITICS AND GEN. GRANT

_Question_.  Some people have made comparisons between the late
Senators O. P. Morton and Zach. Chandler.  What did you think of
them, Colonel?

_Answer_.  I think Morton had the best intellectual grasp of a
question of any man I ever saw.  There was an infinite difference
between the two men.  Morton's strength lay in proving a thing;
Chandler's in asserting it.  But Chandler was a strong man and no
hypocrite.

_Question_.  Have you any objection to being interviewed as to your
ideas of Grant, and his position before the people?

_Answer_.  I have no reason for withholding my views on that or
any other subject that is under public discussion.  My idea is that
Grant can afford to regard the presidency as a broken toy.  It
would add nothing to his fame if he were again elected, and would
add nothing to the debt of gratitude which the people feel they
owe him.  I do not think he will be a candidate.  I do not think
he wants it.  There are men who are pushing him on their own account.
Grant was a great soldier.  He won the respect of the civilized
world.  He commanded the largest army that ever fought for freedom,
and to make him President would not add a solitary leaf to the
wreath of fame already on his brow; and should he be elected, the
only thing he could do would be to keep the old wreath from fading.

I do not think his reputation can ever be as great in any direction
as in the direction of war.  He has made his reputation and has
lived his great life.  I regard him, confessedly, as the best
soldier the Anglo-Saxon blood has produced.  I do not know that it
necessarily follows because he is a great soldier he is great in
other directions.  Probably some of the greatest statesmen in the
world would have been the worst soldiers.

_Question_.  Do you regard him as more popular now than ever before?

_Answer_.  I think that his reputation is certainly greater and
higher than when he left the presidency, and mainly because he has
represented this country with so much discretion and with such
quiet, poised dignity all around the world.  He has measured himself
with kings, and was able to look over the heads of every one of
them.  They were not quite as tall as he was, even adding the crown
to their original height.  I think he represented us abroad with
wonderful success.  One thing that touched me very much was, that
at a reception given him by the workingmen of Birmingham, after he
had been received by royalty, he had the courage to say that that
reception gave him more pleasure than any other.  He has been
throughout perfectly true to the genius of our institutions, and
has not upon any occasion exhibited the slightest toadyism.  Grant
is a man who is not greatly affected by either flattery or abuse.

_Question_.  What do you believe to be his position in regard to
the presidency?

_Answer_.  My own judgment is that he does not care.  I do not
think he has any enemies to punish, and I think that while he was
President he certainly rewarded most of his friends.

_Question_.  What are your views as to a third term?

_Answer_.  I have no objection to a third term on principle, but
so many men want the presidency that it seems almost cruel to give
a third term to anyone.

_Question_.  Then, if there is no objection to a third term, what
about a fourth?

_Answer_.  I do not know that that could be objected to, either.
We have to admit, after all, that the American people, or at least
a majority of them, have a right to elect one man as often as they
please.  Personally, I think it should not be done unless in the
case of a man who is prominent above the rest of his fellow-citizens,
and whose election appears absolutely necessary.  But I frankly
confess I cannot conceive of any political situation where one man
is a necessity.  I do not believe in the one-man-on-horseback idea,
because I believe in all the people being on horseback.

_Question_.  What will be the effect of the enthusiastic receptions
that are being given to General Grant?

_Answer_.  I think these ovations show that the people are resolved
not to lose the results of the great victories of the war, and that
they make known this determination by their attention to General
Grant.  I think that if he goes through the principal cities of
this country the old spirit will be revived everywhere, and whether
it makes him President or not the result will be to make the election
go Republican.  The revival of the memories of the war will bring
the people of the North together as closely as at any time since
that great conflict closed, not in the spirit of hatred, or malice
or envy, but in generous emulation to preserve that which was fairly
won.  I do not think there is any hatred about it, but we are
beginning to see that we must save the South ourselves, and that
that is the only way we can save the nation.

_Question_.  But suppose they give the same receptions in the South?

_Answer_.  So much the better.

_Question_.  Is there any split in the solid South?

_Answer_.  Some of the very best people in the South are apparently
disgusted with following the Democracy any longer, and would hail
with delight any opportunity they could reasonably take advantage
of to leave the organization, if they could do so without making
it appear that they were going back on Southern interests, and this
opportunity will come when the South becomes enlightened, and sees
that it has no interests except in common with the whole country.
That I think they are beginning to see.

_Question_.  How do you like the administration of President Hayes?

_Answer_.  I think its attitude has greatly improved of late.
There are certain games of cards--pedro, for instance, where you
can not only fail to make something, but be set back.  I think that
Hayes's veto messages very nearly got him back to the commencement
of the game--that he is now almost ready to commence counting, and
make some points.  His position before the country has greatly
improved, but he will not develop into a dark horse.  My preference
is, of course, still for Blaine.

_Question_.  Where do you think it is necessary the Republican
candidate should come from to insure success?

_Answer_.  Somewhere out of Ohio.  I think it will go to Maine,
and for this reason:  First of all, Blaine is certainly a competent
man of affairs, a man who knows what to do at the time; and then
he has acted in such a chivalric way ever since the convention at
Cincinnati, that those who opposed him most bitterly, now have for
him nothing but admiration.  I think John Sherman is a man of
decided ability, but I do not believe the American people would
make one brother President, while the other is General of the Army.
It would be giving too much power to one family.

_Question_.  What are your conclusions as to the future of the
Democratic party?

_Answer_.  I think the Democratic party ought to disband.  I think
they would be a great deal stronger disbanded, because they would
get rid of their reputation without decreasing.

_Question_.  But if they will not disband?

_Answer_.  Then the next campaign depends undoubtedly upon New York
and Indiana.  I do not see how they can very well help nominating
a man from Indiana, and by that I mean Hendricks.  You see the
South has one hundred and thirty-eight votes, all supposed to be
Democratic; with the thirty-five from New York and fifteen from
Indiana they would have just three to spare.  Now, I take it, that
the fifteen from Indiana are just about as essential as the thirty-
five from New York.  To lack fifteen votes is nearly as bad as
being thirty-five short, and so far as drawing salary is concerned
it is quite as bad.  Mr. Hendricks ought to know that he holds the
key to Indiana, and that there cannot be any possibility of carrying
this State for Democracy without him.  He has tried running for
the vice-presidency, which is not much of a place anyhow--I would
about as soon be vice-mother-in-law--and my judgment is that he
knows exactly the value of his geographical position.  New York is
divided to that degree that it would be unsafe to take a candidate
from that State; and besides, New York has become famous for
furnishing defeated candidates for the Democracy.  I think the man
must come from Indiana.

_Question_.  Would the Democracy of New York unite on Seymour?

_Answer_.  You recollect what Lincoln said about the powder that
had been shot off once.  I do not remember any man who has once
made a race for the presidency and been defeated ever being again
nominated.

_Question_.  What about Bayard and Hancock as candidates?

_Answer_.  I do not see how Bayard could possibly carry Indiana,
while his own State is too small and too solidly Democratic.  My
idea of Bayard is that he has not been good enough to be popular,
and not bad enough to be famous.  The American people will never
elect a President from a State with a whipping-post.  As to General
Hancock, you may set it down as certain that the South will never
lend their aid to elect a man who helped to put down the Rebellion.
It would be just the same as the effort to elect Greeley.  It cannot
be done.  I see, by the way, that I am reported as having said that
David Davis, as the Democratic candidate, could carry Illinois.
I did say that in 1876, he could have carried it against Hayes;
but whether he could carry Illinois in 1880 would depend altogether
upon who runs against him.  The condition of things has changed
greatly in our favor since 1876.

--_The Journal_, Indianapolis, Ind., November, 1879.
 

POLITICS, RELIGION AND THOMAS PAINE.

_Question_.  You have traveled about this State more or less,
lately, and have, of course, observed political affairs here.  Do
you think that Senator Logan will be able to deliver this State to
the Grant movement according to the understood plan?

_Answer_.  If the State is really for Grant, he will, and if it is
not, he will not.  Illinois is as little "owned" as any State in
this Union.  Illinois would naturally be for Grant, other things
being equal, because he is regarded as a citizen of this State,
and it is very hard for a State to give up the patronage naturally
growing out of the fact that the President comes from that State.

_Question_.  Will the instructions given to delegates be final?

_Answer_.  I do not think they will be considered final at all;
neither do I think they will be considered of any force.  It was
decided at the last convention, in Cincinnati, that the delegates
had a right to vote as they pleased; that each delegate represented
the district of the State that sent him.  The idea that a State
convention can instruct them as against the wishes of their
constituents smacks a little too much of State sovereignty.  The
President should be nominated by the districts of the whole country,
and not by massing the votes by a little chicanery at a State
convention, and every delegate ought to vote what he really believes
to be the sentiment of his constituents, irrespective of what the
State convention may order him to do.  He is not responsible to
the State convention, and it is none of the State convention's
business.  This does not apply, it may be, to the delegates at
large, but to all the others it certainly must apply.  It was so
decided at the Cincinnati convention, and decided on a question
arising about this same Pennsylvania delegation.

_Question_.  Can you guess as to what the platform in going to
contain?

_Answer_.  I suppose it will be a substantial copy of the old one.
I am satisfied with the old one with one addition.  I want a plank
to the effect that no man shall be deprived of any civil or political
right on account of his religious or irreligious opinions.  The
Republican party having been foremost in freeing the body ought to
do just a little something now for the mind.  After having wasted
rivers of blood and treasure uncounted, and almost uncountable, to
free the cage, I propose that something ought to be done for the
bird.  Every decent man in the United States would support that
plank.  People should have a right to testify in courts, whatever
their opinions may be, on any subject.  Justice should not shut
any door leading to truth, and as long as just views neither affect
a man's eyesight or his memory, he should be allowed to tell his
story.  And there are two sides to this question, too.  The man is
not only deprived of his testimony, but the commonwealth is deprived
of it.  There should be no religious test in this country for
office; and if Jehovah cannot support his religion without going
into partnership with a State Legislature, I think he ought to give
it up.

_Question_.  Is there anything new about religion since you were
last here?

_Answer_.  Since I was here I have spoken in a great many cities,
and to-morrow I am going to do some missionary work at Milwaukee.
Many who have come to scoff have remained to pray, and I think that
my labors are being greatly blessed, and all attacks on me so far
have been overruled for good.  I happened to come in contact with
a revival of religion, and I believe what they call an "outpouring"
at Detroit, under the leadership of a gentleman by the name of
Pentecost.  He denounced me as God's greatest enemy.  I had always
supposed that the Devil occupied that exalted position, but it
seems that I have, in some way, fallen heir to his shoes.  Mr.
Pentecost also denounced all business men who would allow any
advertisements or lithographs of mine to hang in their places of
business, and several of these gentlemen thus appealed to took the
advertisements away.  The result of all this was that I had the
largest house that ever attended a lecture in Detroit.  Feeling
that ingratitude is a crime, I publicly returned thanks to the
clergy for the pains they had taken to give me an audience.  And
I may say, in this connection, that if the ministers do God as
little good as they do me harm, they had better let both of us
alone.  I regard them as very good, but exceedingly mistaken men.
They do not come much in contact with the world, and get most of
their views by talking with the women and children of their
congregations.  They are not permitted to mingle freely with society.
They cannot attend plays nor hear operas.  I believe some of them
have ventured to minstrel shows and menageries, where they confine
themselves strictly to the animal part of the entertainment.  But,
as a rule, they have very few opportunities of ascertaining what
the real public opinion is.  They read religious papers, edited by
gentlemen who know as little about the world as themselves, and
the result of all this is that they are rather behind the times.
They are good men, and would like to do right if they only knew
it, but they are a little behind the times.  There is an old story
told of a fellow who had a post-office in a small town in North
Carolina, and he being the only man in the town who could read, a
few people used to gather in the post-office on Sunday, and he
would read to them a weekly paper that was published in Washington.
He commenced always at the top of the first column and read right
straight through, articles, advertisements, and all, and whenever
they got a little tired of reading he would make a mark of red
ochre and commence at that place the next Sunday.  The result was
that the papers came a great deal faster than he read them, and it
was about 1817 when they struck the war of 1812.  The moment they
got to that, every one of them jumped up and offered to volunteer.
All of which shows that they were patriotic people, but a little
show, and somewhat behind the times.

_Question_.  How were you pleased with the Paine meeting here, and
its results?

_Answer_.  I was gratified to see so many people willing at last
to do justice to a great and a maligned man.  Of course I do not
claim that Paine was perfect.  All I claim is that he was a patriot
and a political philosopher; that he was a revolutionist and an
agitator; that he was infinitely full of suggestive thought, and
that he did more than any man to convince the people of American
not only that they ought to separate from Great Britain, but that
they ought to found a representative government.  He has been
despised simply because he did not believe the Bible.  I wish to
do what I can to rescue his name from theological defamation.  I
think the day has come when Thomas Paine will be remembered with
Washington, Franklin and Jefferson, and that the American people
will wonder that their fathers could have been guilty of such base
ingratitude.

--_Chicago Times_, February 8, 1880.
 

REPLY TO CHICAGO CRITICS.

_Question_.  Have you read the replies of the clergy to your recent
lecture in this city on "What Must we do to be Saved?" and if so
what do you think of them?

_Answer_.  I think they dodge the point.  The real point is this:
If salvation by faith is the real doctrine of Christianity, I asked
on Sunday before last, and I still ask, why didn't Matthew tell
it?  I still insist that Mark should have remembered it, and I
shall always believe that Luke ought, at least, to have noticed
it.  I was endeavoring to show that modern Christianity has for
its basis an interpolation.  I think I showed it.  The only gospel
on the orthodox side is that of John, and that was certainly not
written, or did not appear in its present form, until long after
the others were written.

I know very well that the Catholic Church claimed during the Dark
Ages, and still claims, that references had been made to the gospels
by persons living in the first, second, and third centuries; but
I believe such manuscripts were manufactured by the Catholic Church.
For many years in Europe there was not one person in twenty thousand
who could read and write.  During that time the church had in its
keeping the literature of our world.  They interpolated as they
pleased.  They created.  They destroyed.  In other words, they did
whatever in their opinion was necessary to substantiate the faith.

The gentlemen who saw fit to reply did not answer the question,
and I again call upon the clergy to explain to the people why, if
salvation depends upon belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew
didn't mention it.  Some one has said that Christ didn't make known
this doctrine of salvation by belief or faith until after his
resurrection.  Certainly none of the gospels were written until
after his resurrection; and if he made that doctrine known after
his resurrection, and before his ascension, it should have been
in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as well as in John.

The replies of the clergy show that they have not investigated the
subject; that they are not well acquainted with the New Testament.
In other words, they have not read it except with the regulation
theological bias.

There is one thing I wish to correct here.  In an editorial in the
_Tribune_ it was stated that I had admitted that Christ was beyond
and above Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, and others.  I did not say
so.  Another point was made against me, and those who made it seemed
to think it was a good one.  In my lecture I asked why it was that
the disciples of Christ wrote in Greek, whereas, if fact, they
understood only Hebrew.  It is now claimed that Greek was the
language of Jerusalem at that time; that Hebrew had fallen into
disuse; that no one understood it except the literati and the highly
educated.  If I fell into an error upon this point it was because
I relied upon the New Testament.  I find in the twenty-first chapter
of the Acts an account of Paul having been mobbed in the city of
Jerusalem; that he was protected by a chief captain and some
soldiers; that, while upon the stairs of the castle to which he
was being taken for protection, he obtained leave from the captain
to speak unto the people.  In the fortieth verse of that chapter
I find the following:

"And when he had given him license, Paul stood on the stairs and
beckoned with the hand unto the people.  And when there was made
a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,"

And then follows the speech of Paul, wherein he gives an account of
his conversion.  It seems a little curious to me that Paul, for
the purpose of quieting a mob, would speak to that mob in an unknown
language.  If I were mobbed in the city of Chicago, and wished to
defend myself with an explanation, I certainly would not make that
explanation in Choctaw, even if I understood that tongue.  My
present opinion is that I would speak in English; and the reason
I would speak in English is because that language is generally
understood in this city, and so I conclude from the account in the
twenty-first chapter of the Acts that Hebrew was the language of
Jerusalem at that time, or Paul would not have addressed the mob
in that tongue.

_Question_.  Did you read Mr. Courtney's answer?

_Answer_.  I read what Mr. Courtney read from others, and think
some of his quotations very good; and have no doubt that the authors
will feel complimented by being quoted.  There certainly is no need
of my answering Dr. Courtney; sometime I may answer the French
gentlemen from whom he quoted.

_Question_.  But what about there being "belief" in Matthew?

_Answer_.  Mr. Courtney says that certain people were cured of
diseases on account of faith.  Admitting that mumps, measles, and
whooping-cough could be cured in that way, there is not even a
suggestion that salvation depended upon a like faith.  I think he
can hardly afford to rely upon the miracles of the New Testament
to prove his doctrine.  There is one instance in which a miracle
was performed by Christ without his knowledge; and I hardly think
that even Mr. Courtney would insist that any faith could have been
great enough for that.  The fact is, I believe that all these
miracles were ascribed to Christ long after his death, and that
Christ never, at any time or place, pretended to have any supernatural
power whatever.  Neither do I believe that he claimed any supernatural
origin.  He claimed simply to be a man; no less, no more.  I do
not believe Mr. Courtney is satisfied with his own reply.

_Question_.  And now as to Prof. Swing?

_Answer_.  Mr. Swing has been out of the orthodox church so long
that he seems to have forgotten the reasons for which he left it.
I do not believe there is an orthodox minister in the city of
Chicago who will agree with Mr. Swing that salvation by faith is
no longer preached.  Prof. Swing seems to think it of no importance
who wrote the gospel of Matthew.  In this I agree with him.  Judging
from what he said there is hardly difference enough of opinion
between us to justify a reply on his part.  He, however, makes one
mistake.  I did not in the lecture say one word about tearing down
churches.  I have no objection to people building all the churches
they wish.  While I admit it is a pretty sight to see children on
a morning in June going through the fields to the country church,
I still insist that the beauty of that sight does not answer the
question how it is that Matthew forgot to say anything about
salvation through Christ.  Prof. Swing is a man of poetic temperament,
but this is not a poetic question.

_Question_.  How did the card of Dr. Thomas strike you?

_Answer_.  I think the reply of Dr. Thomas is in the best possible
spirit.  I regard him to-day as the best intellect in the Methodist
denomination.  He seems to have what is generally understood as a
Christian spirit.  He has always treated me with perfect fairness,
and I should have said long ago many grateful things, had I not
feared I might hurt him with his own people.  He seems to be by
nature a perfectly fair man; and I know of no man in the United
States for whom I have a profounder respect.  Of course, I don't
agree with Dr. Thomas.  I think in many things he is mistaken.
But I believe him to be perfectly sincere.  There is one trouble
about him--he is growing; and this fact will no doubt give great
trouble to many of his brethren.  Certain Methodist hazel-brush
feel a little uneasy in the shadow of this oak.  To see the difference
between him and some others, all that is necessary is to read his
reply, and then read the remarks made at the Methodist ministers'
meeting on the Monday following.  Compared with Dr. Thomas, they
are as puddles by the sea.  There is the same difference that there
is between sewers and rivers, cesspools and springs.

_Question_.  What have you to say to the remarks of the Rev. Dr.
Jewett before the Methodist ministers' meeting?

_Answer_.  I think Dr. Jewett is extremely foolish.  I did not say
that I would commence suit against a minister for libel.  I can
hardly conceive of a proceeding that would be less liable to produce
a dividend.  The fact about it is, that the Rev. Mr. Jewett seems
to think anything true that he hears against me.  Mr. Jewett is
probably ashamed of what he said by this time.  He must have known
it to be entirely false.  It seems to me by this time even the most
bigoted should lose their confidence in falsehood.  Of course there
are times when a falsehood well told bridges over quite a difficulty,
but in the long run you had better tell the truth, even if you swim
the creek.  I am astonished that these ministers were willing to
exhibit their wounds to the world.  I supposed of course I would
hit some, but I had no idea of wounding so many.

_Question_.  Mr. Crafts stated that you were in the habit of swearing
in company and before your family?

_Answer_.  I often swear.  In other words, I take the name of God
in vain; that is to say, I take it without any practical thing
resulting from it, and in that sense I think most ministers are
guilty of the same thing.  I heard an old story of a clergyman who
rebuked a neighbor for swearing, to whom the neighbor replied, "You
pray and I swear, but as a matter of fact neither of us means
anything by it."  As to the charge that I am in the habit of using
indecent language in my family, no reply is needed.  I am willing
to leave that question to the people who know us both.  Mr. Crafts
says he was told this by a lady.  This cannot by any possibility
be true, for no lady will tell a falsehood.  Besides, if this woman
of whom he speaks was a lady, how did she happen to stay where
obscene language was being used?  No lady ever told Mr. Crafts any
such thing.  It may be that a lady did tell him that I used profane
language.  I admit that I have not always spoken of the Devil in
a respectful way; that I have sometimes referred to his residence
when it was not a necessary part of the conversation, and that a
divers times I have used a good deal of the terminology of the
theologian when the exact words of the scientist might have done
as well.  But if by swearing is meant the use of God's name in
vain, there are very few preachers who do not swear more than I
do, if by "in vain" is meant without any practical result.  I leave
Mr. Crafts to cultivate the acquaintance of the unknown lady,
knowing as I do, that after they have talked this matter over again
they will find that both have been mistaken.

I sincerely regret that clergymen who really believe that an infinite
God is on their side think it necessary to resort to such things
to defeat one man.  According to their idea, God is against me,
and they ought to have confidence in this infinite wisdom and
strength to suppose that he could dispose of one man, even if they
failed to say a word against me.  Had you not asked me I should
have said nothing to you on these topics.  Such charges cannot hurt
me.  I do not believe it possible for such men to injure me.  No
one believes what they say, and the testimony of such clergymen
against an Infidel is no longer considered of value.  I believe it
was Goethe who said, "I always know that I am traveling when I hear
the dogs bark."

_Question_.  Are you going to make a formal reply to their sermons?

_Answer_.  Not unless something better is done than has been.  Of
course, I don't know what another Sabbath may bring forth.  I am
waiting.  But of one thing I feel perfectly assured; that no man
in the United States, or in the world, can account for the fact,
if we are to be saved only by faith in Christ, that Matthew forgot
it, that Luke said nothing about it, and that Mark never mentioned
it except in two passages written by _another_ person.  Until that
is answered, as one grave-digger says to the other in "Hamlet," I
shall say, "Ay, tell me that and unyoke."  In the meantime I wish
to keep on the best terms with all parties concerned.  I cannot
see why my forgiving spirit fails to gain their sincere praise.

--_Chicago Tribune_, September 30, 1880.
 

THE REPUBLICAN VICTORY.

_Question_.  Do you really think, Colonel, that the country has
just passed through a crisis?

_Answer_.  Yes; there was a crisis and a great one.  The question
was whether a Northern or Southern idea of the powers and duties
of the Federal Government was to prevail.  The great victory of
yesterday means that the Rebellion was not put down on the field
of war alone, but that we have conquered in the realm of thought.
The bayonet has been justified by argument.  No party can ever
succeed in this country that even whispers "State Sovereignty."
That doctrine has become odious.  The sovereignty of the State
means a Government without power, and citizens without protection.

_Question_.  Can you see any further significance in the present
Republican victory other than that the people do not wish to change
the general policy of the present administration?

_Answer_.  Yes; the people have concluded that the lips of America
shall be free.  There never was free speech at the South, and there
never will be until the people of that section admit that the Nation
is superior to the State, and that all citizens have equal rights.
I know of hundreds who voted the Republican ticket because they
regarded the South as hostile to free speech.  The people were
satisfied with the financial policy of the Republicans, and they
feared a change.  The North wants honest money--gold and silver.
The people are in favor of honest votes, and they feared the
practices of the Democratic party.  The tissue ballot and shotgun
policy made them hesitate to put power in the hands of the South.
Besides, the tariff question made thousands and thousands of votes.
As long as Europe has slave labor, and wherever kings and priests
rule, the laborer will be substantially a slave.  We must protect
ourselves.  If the world were free, trade would be free, and the
seas would be the free highways of the world.  The great objects
of the Republican party are to preserve all the liberty we have,
protect American labor, and to make it the undisputed duty of the
Government to protect every citizen at home and abroad.

_Question_.  What do you think was the main cause of the Republican
sweep?

_Answer_.  The wisdom of the Republicans and the mistakes of the
Democrats.  The Democratic party has for twenty years underrated
the intelligence, the patriotism and the honesty of the American
people.  That party has always looked upon politics as a trade,
and success as the last act of a cunning trick.  It has had no
principles, fixed or otherwise.  It has always been willing to
abandon everything but its prejudices.  It generally commences
where it left off and then goes backward.  In this campaign English
was a mistake, Hancock was another.  Nothing could have been more
incongruous than yoking a Federal soldier with a peace-at-any-price
Democrat.  Neither could praise the other without slandering himself,
and the blindest partisan could not like them both.  But, after
all, I regard the military record of English as fully equal to the
views of General Hancock on the tariff.  The greatest mistake that
the Democratic party made was to suppose that a campaign could be
fought and won by slander.  The American people like fair play and
they abhor ignorant and absurd vituperation.  The continent knew
that General Garfield was an honest man; that he was in the grandest
sense a gentleman; that he was patriotic, profound and learned;
that his private life was pure; that his home life was good and
kind and true, and all the charges made and howled and screeched
and printed and sworn to harmed only those who did the making and
the howling, the screeching and the swearing.  I never knew a man
in whose perfect integrity I had more perfect confidence, and in
less than one year even the men who have slandered him will agree
with me.

_Question_.  How about that "personal and confidential letter"?
(The Morey letter.)

_Answer_.  It was as stupid, as devilish, as basely born as
godfathered.  It is an exploded forgery, and the explosion leaves
dead and torn upon the field the author and his witnesses.

_Question_.  Is there anything in the charge that the Republican
party seeks to change our form of government by gradual centralization?

_Answer_.  Nothing whatever.  We want power enough in the Government
to protect, not to destroy, the liberties of the people.  The
history of the world shows that burglars have always opposed an
increase of the police.

--_New York Herald_, November 5, 1880.
 

INGERSOLL AND BEECHER.*

[* The sensation created by the speech of the Rev. Henry Ward Beecher
at the Academy of Music, in Brooklyn, when he uttered a brilliant eulogy
of Col. Robert Ingersoll and publicly shook hands with him has not yet
subsided.  A portion of the religious world is thoroughly stirred up at
what it considers a gross breach of orthodox propriety.  This feeling
is especially strong among the class of positivists who believe that

  "An Atheist's laugh's a poor exchange
   For Deity offended."

Many believe that Mr. Beecher is at heart in full sympathy and
accord with Ingersoll's teachings, but has not courage enough to
say so at the sacrifice of his pastoral position.  The fact that
these two men are the very head and front of their respective
schools of thought makes the matter an important one.  The denouncement
of the doctrine of eternal punishment, followed by the scene at
the Academy, has about it an aroma of suggestiveness that might
work much harm without an explanation.  Since Colonel Ingersoll's
recent attack upon the _personnel_ of the clergy through the "Shorter
Catechism" the pulpit has been remarkably silent regarding the
great atheist.  "Is the keen logic and broad humanity of Ingersoll
converting the brain and heart of Christendom?" was recently asked.
Did the hand that was stretched out to him on the stage of the
Academy reach across the chasm which separates orthodoxy from
infidelity?

Desiring to answer the last question if possible, a _Herald_ reporter
visited Mr. Beecher and Colonel Ingersoll to learn their opinion
of each other.  Neither of the gentlemen was aware that the other
was being interviewed.]

_Question_.  What is your opinion of Mr. Beecher?

_Answer_.  I regard him as the greatest man in any pulpit of the
world.  He treated me with a generosity that nothing can exceed.
He rose grandly above the prejudices supposed to belong to his
class, and acted as only a man could act without a chain upon his
brain and only kindness in his heart.

I told him that night that I congratulated the world that it had
a minister with an intellectual horizon broad enough and a mental
sky studded with stars of genius enough to hold all creeds in scorn
that shocked the heart of man.  I think that Mr. Beecher has
liberalized the English-speaking people of the world.

I do not think he agrees with me.  He holds to many things that I
most passionately deny.  But in common, we believe in the liberty
of thought.

My principal objections to orthodox religion are two--slavery here
and hell hereafter.  I do not believe that Mr. Beecher on these
points can disagree with me.  The real difference between us is--
he says God, I say Nature.  The real agreement between us is--we
both say--Liberty.

_Question_.  What is his forte?

_Answer_.  He is of a wonderfully poetic temperament.  In pursuing
any course of thought his mind is like a stream flowing through
the scenery of fairyland.  The stream murmurs and laughs while the
banks grow green and the vines blossom.

His brain is controlled by his heart.  He thinks in pictures.  With
him logic means mental melody.  The discordant is the absurd.

For years he has endeavored to hide the dungeon of orthodoxy with
the ivy of imagination.  Now and then he pulls for a moment the
leafy curtain aside and is horrified to see the lizards, snakes,
basilisks and abnormal monsters of the orthodox age, and then he
utters a great cry, the protest of a loving, throbbing heart.

He is a great thinker, a marvelous orator, and, in my judgment,
greater and grander than any creed of any church.

Besides all this, he treated me like a king.  Manhood is his forte,
and I expect to live and die his friend.

BEECHER ON INGERSOLL.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of Colonel Ingersoll?

_Answer_.  I do not think there should be any misconception as to
my motive for indorsing Mr. Ingersoll.  I never saw him before that
night, when I clasped his hand in the presence of an assemblage of
citizens.  Yet I regard him as one of the greatest men of this age.

_Question_.  Is his influence upon the world good or otherwise?

_Answer_.  I am an ordained clergyman and believe in revealed
religion.  I am, therefore, bound to regard all persons who do not
believe in revealed religion as in error.  But on the broad platform
of human liberty and progress I was bound to give him the right
hand of fellowship.  I would do it a thousand times over.  I do
not know Colonel Ingersoll's religious views precisely, but I have
a general knowledge of them.  He has the same right to free thought
and free speech that I have.  I am not that kind of a coward who
has to kick a man before he shakes hands with him.  If I did so I
would have to kick the Methodists, Roman Catholics and all other
creeds.  I will not pitch into any man's religion as an excuse for
giving him my hand.  I admire Ingersoll because he is not afraid
to speak what he honestly thinks, and I am only sorry that he does
not think as I do.  I never heard so much brilliancy and pith put
into a two hour speech as I did on that night.  I wish my whole
congregation had been there to hear it.  I regret that there are
not more men like Ingersoll interested in the affairs of the nation.
I do not wish to be understood as indorsing skepticism in any form.

--_New York Herald_, November 7, 1880.
 

POLITICAL.

_Question_.  Is it true, as rumored, that you intend to leave
Washington and reside in New York?

_Answer_.  No, I expect to remain here for years to come, so far
as I can now see.  My present intention is certainly to stay here
during the coming winter.

_Question_.  Is this because you regard Washington as the pleasantest
and most advantageous city for a residence?

_Answer_.  Well, in the first place, I dislike to move.  In the
next place, the climate is good.  In the third place, the political
atmosphere has been growing better of late, and when you consider
that I avoid one dislike and reap the benefits of two likes, you
can see why I remain.

_Question_.  Do you think that the moral atmosphere will improve
with the political atmosphere?

_Answer_.  I would hate to say that this city is capable of any
improvement in the way of morality.  We have a great many churches,
a great many ministers, and, I believe, some retired chaplains, so
I take it that the moral tone of the place could hardly be bettered.
One majority in the Senate might help it.  Seriously, however, I
think that Washington has as high a standard of morality as any
city in the Union.  And it is one of the best towns in which to
loan money without collateral in the world.

_Question_.  Do you know this from experience?

_Answer_.  This I have been told [was the solemn answer.]

_Question_.  Do you think that the political features of the incoming
administration will differ from the present?

_Answer_.  Of course, I have no right to speak for General Garfield.
I believe his administration will be Republican, at the same time
perfectly kind, manly, and generous.  He is a man to harbor no
resentment.  He knows that it is the duty of statesmanship to remove
causes of irritation rather then punish the irritated.

_Question_.  Do I understand you to imply that there will be a
neutral policy, as it were, towards the South?

_Answer_.  No, I think that there will be nothing neutral about
it.  I think that the next administration will be one-sided--that
is, it will be on the right side.  I know of no better definition
for a compromise than to say it is a proceeding in which hypocrites
deceive each other.  I do not believe that the incoming administration
will be neutral in anything.  The American people do not like
neutrality.  They would rather a man were on the wrong side than
on neither.  And, in my judgment, there is no paper so utterly
unfair, malicious and devilish, as one that claims to be neutral.
No politician is as bitter as a neutral politician.  Neutrality is
generally used as a mask to hide unusual bitterness.  Sometimes it
hides what it is--nothing.  It always stands for hollowness of head
or bitterness of heart, sometimes for both.  My idea is--and that
is the only reason I have the right to express it--that General
Garfield believes in the platform adopted by the Republican party.
He believes in free speech, in honest money, in divorce of church
and state, and he believes in the protection of American citizens
by the Federal Government wherever the flag flies.  He believes
that the Federal Government is as much bound to protect the citizen
at home as abroad.  I believe he will do the very best he can to
carry these great ideas into execution and make them living realities
in the United States.  Personally, I have no hatred toward the
Southern people.  I have no hatred toward any class.  I hate tyranny,
no matter whether it is South or North; I hate hypocrisy, and I
hate above all things, the spirit of caste.  If the Southern people
could only see that they gained as great a victory in the Rebellion
as the North did, and some day they will see it, the whole question
would be settled.  The South has reaped a far greater benefit from
being defeated than the North has from being successful, and I
believe some day the South will be great enough to appreciate that
fact.  I have always insisted that to be beaten by the right is to
be a victor.  The Southern people must get over the idea that they
are insulted simply because they are out-voted, and they ought by
this time to know that the Republicans of the North, not only do
not wish them harm, but really wish them the utmost success.

_Question_.  But has the Republican party all the good and the
Democratic all the bad?

_Answer_.  No, I do not think that the Republican party has all
the good, nor do I pretend that the Democratic party has all the
bad; though I may say that each party comes pretty near it.  I
admit that there are thousands of really good fellows in the
Democratic party, and there are some pretty bad people in the
Republican party.  But I honestly believe that within the latter
are most of the progressive men of this country.  That party has
in it the elements of growth.  It is full of hope.  It anticipates.
The Democratic party remembers. It is always talking about the
past.  It is the possessor of a vast amount of political rubbish,
and I really believe it has outlived its usefulness.  I firmly
believe that your editor, Mr. Hutchings, could start a better
organization, if he would only turn his attention to it.  Just
think for a moment of the number you could get rid of by starting
a new party.  A hundred names will probably suggest themselves to
any intelligent Democrat, the loss of which would almost insure
success.  Some one has said that a tailor in Boston made a fortune
by advertising that he did not cut the breeches of Webster's statue.
A new party by advertising that certain men would not belong to
it, would have an advantage in the next race.

_Question_.  What, in your opinion, were the causes which led to
the Democratic defeat?

_Answer_.  I think the nomination of English was exceedingly
unfortunate.  Indiana, being an October State, the best man in that
State should have been nominated either for President or Vice-
President.  Personally, I know nothing of Mr. English, but I have
the right to say that he was exceedingly unpopular.  That was
mistake number one.  Mistake number two was putting a plank in the
platform insisting upon a tariff for revenue only.  That little
word "only" was one of the most frightful mistakes ever made by a
political party.  That little word "only" was a millstone around
the neck of the entire campaign.  The third mistake was Hancock's
definition of the tariff.  It was exceedingly unfortunate, exceedingly
laughable, and came just in the nick of time.  The fourth mistake
was the speech of Wade Hampton, I mean the speech that the Republican
papers claim he made.  Of course I do not know, personally, whether
it was made or not.  If made, it was a great mistake.  Mistake
number five was made in Alabama, where they refused to allow a
Greenbacker to express his opinion.  That lost the Democrats enough
Greenbackers to turn the scale in Maine, and enough in Indiana to
change that election.  Mistake number six was in the charges made
against General Garfield.  They were insisted upon, magnified and
multiplied until at last the whole thing assumed the proportions
of a malicious libel.  This was a great mistake, for the reason
that a number of Democrats in the United States had most heartily
and cordially indorsed General Garfield as a man of integrity and
great ability.  Such indorsements had been made by the leading
Democrats of the North and South, among them Governor Hendricks
and many others I might name.  Jere Black had also certified to
the integrity and intellectual grandeur of General Garfield, and
when afterward he certified to the exact contrary, the people
believed that it was a persecution.  The next mistake, number seven,
was the Chinese letter.  While it lost Garfield California, Nevada,
and probably New Jersey, it did him good in New York.  This letter
was the greatest mistake made, because a crime is greater than a
mistake.  These, in my judgment, are the principal mistakes made
by the Democratic party in the campaign.  Had McDonald been on the
ticket the result might have been different, or had the party united
on some man in New York, satisfactory to the factions, it might
have succeeded.  The truth, however, is that the North to-day is
Republican, and it may be that had the Democratic party made no
mistakes whatever the result would have been the same.  But that
mistakes were made is now perfectly evident to the blindest partisan.
If the ticket originally suggested, Seymour and McDonald, had been
nominated on an unobjectionable platform, the result might have
been different. One of the happiest days in my life was the day on
which the Cincinnati convention did not nominate Seymour and did
nominate English.  I regard General Hancock as a good soldier, but
not particularly qualified to act as President.  He has neither
the intellectual training nor the experience to qualify him for
that place.

_Question_.  You have doubtless heard of a new party, Colonel.
What is your idea in regard to it?

_Answer_.  I have heard two or three speak of a new party to be
called the National party, or National Union party, but whether
there is anything in such a movement I have no means of knowing.
Any party in opposition to the Republican, no matter what it may
be called, must win on a new issue, and that new issue will determine
the new party.  Parties cannot be made to order.  They must grow.
They are the natural offspring of national events.  They must embody
certain hopes, they must gratify, or promise to gratify, the feelings
of a vast number of people.  No man can make a party, and if a new
party springs into existence it will not be brought forth to gratify
the wishes of a few, but the wants of the many.  It has seemed to
me for years that the Democratic party carried too great a load in
the shape of record; that its autobiography was nearly killing it
all the time, and that if it could die just long enough to assume
another form at the resurrection, just long enough to leave a grave
stone to mark the end of its history, to get a cemetery back of
it, that it might hope for something like success.  In other words,
that there must be a funeral before there can be victory.  Most of
its leaders are worn out.  They have become so accustomed to defeat
that they take it as a matter of course; they expect it in the
beginning and seem unconsciously to work for it.  There must be
some new ideas, and this only can happen when the party as such
has been gathered to its fathers.  I do not think that the advice
of Senator Hill will be followed.  He is willing to kill the
Democratic party in the South if we will kill the Republican party
in the North.  This puts me in mind of what the rooster said to
the horse:  "Let us agree not to step on each other's feet."

_Question_.  Your views of the country's future and prospects must
naturally be rose colored?

_Answer_.  Of course, I look at things through Republican eyes and
may be prejudiced without knowing it.  But it really seems to me
that the future is full of great promise.  The South, after all,
is growing more prosperous.  It is producing more and more every
year, until in time it will become wealthy.  The West is growing
almost beyond the imagination of a speculator, and the Eastern and
Middle States are much more than holding their own.  We have now
fifty millions of people and in a few years will have a hundred.
That we are a Nation I think is now settled.  Our growth will be
unparalleled.  I myself expect to live to see as many ships on the
Pacific as on the Atlantic.  In a few years there will probably be
ten millions of people living along the Rocky and Sierra Mountains.
It will not be long until Illinois will find her market west of
her.  In fifty years this will be the greatest nation on the earth,
and the most populous in the civilized world.  China is slowly
awakening from the lethargy of centuries.  It will soon have the
wants of Europe, and America will supply those wants.  This is a
nation of inventors and there is more mechanical ingenuity in the
United States than on the rest of the globe.  In my judgment this
country will in a short time add to its customers hundreds of
millions of the people of the Celestial Empire.  So you see, to
me, the future is exceedingly bright.  And besides all this, I must
not forget the thing that is always nearest my heart.  There is
more intellectual liberty in the United States to-day than ever
before.  The people are beginning to see that every citizen ought
to have the right to express himself freely upon every possible
subject.  In a little while, all the barbarous laws that now disgrace
the statute books of the States by discriminating against a man
simply because he is honest, will be repealed, and there will be
one country where all citizens will have and enjoy not only equal
rights, but all rights.  Nothing gratifies me so much as the growth
of intellectual liberty.  After all, the true civilization is where
every man gives to every other, every right that he claims for
himself.

--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., November 14, 1880.
 

RELIGION IN POLITICS.

_Question_.  How do you regard the present political situation?

_Answer_.  My opinion is that the ideas the North fought for upon
the field have at last triumphed at the ballot-box.  For several
years after the Rebellion was put down the Southern ideas traveled
North.  We lost West Virginia, New Jersey, Connecticut, New York
and a great many congressional districts in other States.  We lost
both houses of Congress and every Southern State.  The Southern
ideas reached their climax in 1876.  In my judgment the tide has
turned, and hereafter the Northern idea is going South.  The young
men are on the Republican side.  The old Democrats are dying.  The
cradle is beating the coffin.  It is a case of life and death, and
life is ahead.  The heirs outnumber the administrators.

_Question_.  What kind of a President will Garfield make?

_Answer_.  My opinion is that he will make as good a President as
this nation ever had.  He is fully equipped.  He is a trained
statesman.  He has discussed all the great questions that have
arisen for the last eighteen years, and with great ability.  He is
a thorough scholar, a conscientious student, and takes an exceedingly
comprehensive survey of all questions.  He is genial, generous and
candid, and has all the necessary qualities of heart and brain to
make a great President.  He has no prejudices.  Prejudice is the
child and flatterer of ignorance.  He is firm, but not obstinate.
The obstinate man wants his own way; the firm man stands by the
right.  Andrew Johnson was obstinate--Lincoln was firm.

_Question_.  How do you think he will treat the South?

_Answer_.  Just the same as the North.  He will be the President
of the whole country.  He will not execute the laws by the compass,
but according to the Constitution.  I do not speak for General
Garfield, nor by any authority from his friends.  No one wishes to
injure the South.  The Republican party feels in honor bound to
protect all citizens, white and black.  It must do this in order
to keep its self-respect.  It must throw the shield of the Nation
over the weakest, the humblest and the blackest citizen.  Any other
course is suicide.  No thoughtful Southern man can object to this,
and a Northern Democrat knows that it is right.

_Question_.  Is there a probability that Mr. Sherman will be retained
in the Cabinet?

_Answer_.  I have no knowledge upon that question, and consequently
have nothing to say.  My opinion about the Cabinet is, that General
Garfield is well enough acquainted with public men to choose a
Cabinet that will suit him and the country.  I have never regarded
it as the proper thing to try and force a Cabinet upon a President.
He has the right to be surrounded by his friends, by men in whose
judgment and in whose friendship he has the utmost confidence, and
I would no more think of trying to put some man in the Cabinet that
I would think of signing a petition that a man should marry a
certain woman.  General Garfield will, I believe, select his own
constitutional advisers, and he will take the best he knows.

_Question_.  What, in your opinion, is the condition of the Democratic
party at present?

_Answer_.  It must get a new set of principles, and throw away its
prejudices.  It must demonstrate its capacity to govern the country
by governing the States where it is in power.  In the presence of
rebellion it gave up the ship.  The South must become Republican
before the North will willingly give it power; that is, the great
ideas of nationality are greater than parties, and if our flag is
not large enough to protect every citizen, we must add a few more
stars and stripes.  Personally I have no hatreds in this matter.
The present is not only the child of the past, but the necessary
child.  A statesman must deal with things as they are.  He must
not be like Gladstone, who divides his time between foreign wars
and amendments to the English Book of Common Prayer.

_Question_.  How do you regard the religious question in politics?

_Answer_.  Religion is a personal matter--a matter that each
individual soul should be allowed to settle for itself.  No man
shod in the brogans of impudence should walk into the temple of
another man's soul.  While every man should be governed by the
highest possible considerations of the public weal, no one has the
right to ask for legal assistance in the support of his particular
sect.  If Catholics oppose the public schools I would not oppose
them because they are Catholics, but because I am in favor of the
schools.  I regard the public school as the intellectual bread of
life.  Personally I have no confidence in any religion that can be
demonstrated only to children.  I suspect all creeds that rely
implicitly on mothers and nurses.  That religion is the best that
commends itself the strongest to men and women of education and
genius.  After all, the prejudices of infancy and the ignorance of
the aged are a poor foundation for any system of morals or faith.
I respect every honest man, and I think more of a liberal Catholic
than of an illiberal Infidel.  The religious question should be
left out of politics.  You might as well decide questions of art
and music by a ward caucus as to govern the longings and dreams of
the soul by law.  I believe in letting the sun shine whether the
weeds grow or not.  I can never side with Protestants if they try
to put Catholics down by law, and I expect to oppose both of these
until religious intolerance is regarded as a crime.

_Question_.  Is the religious movement of which you are the chief
exponent spreading?

_Answer_.  There are ten times as many Freethinkers this year as
there were last.  Civilization is the child of free thought.  The
new world has drifted away from the rotting wharf of superstition.
The politics of this country are being settled by the new ideas of
individual liberty; and parties and churches that cannot accept
the new truths must perish.  I want it perfectly understood that
I am not a politician.  I believe in liberty and I want to see the
time when every man, woman and child will enjoy every human right.

The election is over, the passions aroused by the campaign will
soon subside, the sober judgment of the people will, in my opinion,
indorse the result, and time will indorse the indorsement.

--_The Evening Express_, New York City, November 19, 1880.
 

MIRACLES AND IMMORTALITY.

_Question_.  You have seen some accounts of the recent sermon of
Dr. Tyng on "Miracles," I presume, and if so, what is your opinion
of the sermon, and also what is your opinion of miracles?

_Answer_.  From an orthodox standpoint, I think the Rev. Dr. Tyng
is right.  If miracles were necessary eighteen hundred years ago,
before scientific facts enough were known to overthrow hundreds
and thousands of passages in the Bible, certainly they are necessary
now.  Dr. Tyng sees clearly that the old miracles are nearly worn
out, and that some new ones are absolutely essential.  He takes
for granted that, if God would do a miracle to found his gospel,
he certainly would do some more to preserve it, and that it is in
need of preservation about now is evident.  I am amazed that the
religious world should laugh at him for believing in miracles.  It
seems to me just as reasonable that the deaf, dumb, blind and lame,
should be cured at Lourdes as at Palestine.  It certainly is no
more wonderful that the law of nature should be broken now than
that it was broken several thousand years ago.  Dr. Tyng also has
this advantage.  The witnesses by whom he proves these miracles
are alive.  An unbeliever can have the opportunity of cross-
examination.  Whereas, the miracles in the New Testament are
substantiated only by the dead.  It is just as reasonable to me
that blind people receive their sight in France as that devils were
made to vacate human bodies in the holy land.

For one I am exceedingly glad that Dr. Tyng has taken this position.
It shows that he is a believer in a personal God, in a God who is
attending a little to the affairs of this world, and in a God who
did not exhaust his supplies in the apostolic age.  It is refreshing
to me to find in this scientific age a gentleman who still believes
in miracles.  My opinion is that all thorough religionists will have
to take the ground and admit that a supernatural religion must be
supernaturally preserved.

I have been asking for a miracle for several years, and have in a
very mild, gentle and loving way, taunted the church for not
producing a little one.  I have had the impudence to ask any number
of them to join in a prayer asking anything they desire for the
purpose of testing the efficiency of what is known as supplication.
They answer me by calling my attention to the miracles recorded in
the New Testament.  I insist, however, on a new miracle, and,
personally, I would like to see one now.  Certainly, the Infinite
has not lost his power, and certainly the Infinite knows that
thousands and hundreds of thousands, if the Bible is true, are now
pouring over the precipice of unbelief into the gulf of hell.  One
little miracle would save thousands.  One little miracle in Pittsburg,
well authenticated, would do more good than all the preaching ever
heard in this sooty town.  The Rev. Dr. Tyng clearly sees this,
and he has been driven to the conclusion, first, that God can do
miracles; second, that he ought to, third, that he has.  In this
he is perfectly logical.  After a man believes the Bible, after he
believes in the flood and in the story of Jonah, certainly he ought
not to hesitate at a miracle of to-day.  When I say I want a miracle,
I mean by that, I want a good one.  All the miracles recorded in
the New Testament could have been simulated.  A fellow could have
pretended to be dead, or blind, or dumb, or deaf.  I want to see
a good miracle.  I want to see a man with one leg, and then I want
to see the other leg grow out.

I would like to see a miracle like that performed in North Carolina.
Two men were disputing about the relative merits of the salve they
had for sale.  One of the men, in order to demonstrate that his
salve was better than any other, cut off a dog's tail and applied
a little of the salve to the stump, and, in the presence of the
spectators, a new tail grew out.  But the other man, who also had
salve for sale, took up the piece of tail that had been cast away,
put a little salve at the end of that, and a new dog grew out, and
the last heard of those parties they were quarrelling as to who
owned the second dog.  Something like that is what I call a miracle.

_Question_.  What do you believe about the immortality of the soul?
Do you believe that the spirit lives as an individual after the
body is dead?

_Answer_.  I have said a great many times that it is no more
wonderful that we should live again than that we do live.  Sometimes
I have thought it not quite so wonderful for the reason that we
have a start.  But upon that subject I have not the slightest
information.  Whether man lives again or not I cannot pretend to
say.  There may be another world and there may not be.  If there
is another world we ought to make the best of it after arriving
there.  If there is not another world, or if there is another world,
we ought to make the best of this.  And since nobody knows, all
should be permitted to have their opinions, and my opinion is that
nobody knows.

If we take the Old Testament for authority, man is not immortal.
The Old Testament shows man how he lost immortality.  According to
Genesis, God prevented man from putting forth his hand and eating
of the Tree of Life.  It is there stated, had he succeeded, man
would have lived forever.  God drove him from the garden, preventing
him eating of this tree, and in consequence man became mortal; so
that if we go by the Old Testament we are compelled to give up
immortality.  The New Testament has but little on the subject.  In
one place we are told to seek for immortality.  If we are already
immortal, it is hard to see why we should go on seeking for it.
In another place we are told that they who are worthy to obtain
that world and the resurrection of the dead, are not given in
marriage.  From this one would infer there would be some unworthy
to be raised from the dead.  Upon the question of immortality, the
Old Testament throws but little satisfactory light.  I do not deny
immortality, nor would I endeavor to shake the belief of anybody
in another life.  What I am endeavoring to do is to put out the
fires of hell.  If we cannot have heaven without hell, I am in
favor of abolishing heaven.  I do not want to go to heaven if one
soul is doomed to agony.  I would rather be annihilated.

My opinion of immortality is this:

First.--I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful.

Second.--There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I
was.  Third.--Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more
wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am,
having once been nothing.  If the churches advocated immortality,
if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be
rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that
some time in eternity there would be an opportunity given to lift
up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress
and virtue would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and
no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children
of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word
against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority
of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose
them; that is to say, as long as I live.

_Question_.  Do you believe in a God; and, if so, what kind of a
God?

_Answer_.  Let me, in the first place, lay a foundation for an
answer.

First.--Man gets all food for thought through the medium of the
senses.  The effect of nature upon the senses, and through the
senses upon the brain, must be natural.  All food for thought,
then, is natural.  As a consequence of this, there can be no
supernatural idea in the human brain.  Whatever idea there is must
have been a natural product.  If, then, there is no supernatural
idea in the human brain, then there cannot be in the human brain
an idea of the supernatural.  If we can have no idea of the
supernatural, and if the God of whom you spoke is admitted to be
supernatural, then, of course, I can have no idea of him, and I
certainly can have no very fixed belief on any subject about which
I have no idea.

There may be a God for all I know.  There may be thousands of them.
But the idea of an infinite Being outside and independent of nature
is inconceivable.  I do not know of any word that would explain my
doctrine or my views upon the subject.  I suppose Pantheism is as
near as I could go.  I believe in the eternity of matter and in
the eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any Being
outside of nature.  I do not believe in any personal Deity.  I do
not believe in any aristocracy of the air.  I know nothing about
origin or destiny.  Between these two horizons I live, whether I
wish to or not, and must be satisfied with what I find between
these two horizons.  I have never heard any God described that I
believe in.  I have never heard any religion explained that I
accept.  To make something out of nothing cannot be more absurd
than that an infinite intelligence made this world, and proceeded
to fill it with crime and want and agony, and then, not satisfied
with the evil he had wrought, made a hell in which to consummate
the great mistake.

_Question_.  Do you believe that the world, and all that is in it
came by chance?

_Answer_.  I do not believe anything comes by chance.  I regard
the present as the necessary child of a necessary past.  I believe
matter is eternal; that it has eternally existed and eternally will
exist.  I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what
we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence.  I
believe that whatever is in the universe has existed from eternity
and will forever exist.

Secondly.--I exclude from my philosophy all ideas of chance.  Matter
changes eternally its form, never its essence.  You cannot conceive
of anything being created.  No one can conceive of anything existing
without a cause or with a cause.  Let me explain; a thing is not
a cause until an effect has been produced; so that, after all,
cause and effect are twins coming into life at precisely the same
instant, born of the womb of an unknown mother.  The Universe in
the only fact, and everything that ever has happened, is happening,
or will happen, are but the different aspects of the one eternal
fact.

--_The Dispatch_, Pittsburg, Pa., December 11, 1880.
 

THE POLITICAL OUTLOOK.

_Question_.  What phases will the Southern question assume in the
next four years?

_Answer_.  The next Congress should promptly unseat every member
of Congress in whose district there was not a fair and honest
election.  That is the first hard work to be done.  Let notice, in
this way, be given to the whole country, that fraud cannot succeed.
No man should be allowed to hold a seat by force or fraud.  Just
as soon as it is understood that fraud is useless it will be
abandoned.  In that way the honest voters of the whole country can
be protected.

An honest vote settles the Southern question, and Congress has the
power to compel an honest vote, or to leave the dishonest districts
without representation.  I want this policy adopted, not only in
the South, but in the North.  No man touched or stained with fraud
should be allowed to hold his seat.  Send such men home, and let
them stay there until sent back by honest votes.  The Southern
question is a Northern question, and the Republican party must
settle it for all time.  We must have honest elections, or the
Republic must fall.  Illegal voting must be considered and punished
as a crime.

Taking one hundred and seventy thousand as the basis of representation,
the South, through her astounding increase of colored population,
gains three electoral votes, while the North and East lose three.
Garfield was elected by the thirty thousand colored votes cast in
New York.

_Question_.  Will the negro continue to be the balance of power,
and if so, will it inure to his benefit?

_Answer_.  The more political power the colored man has the better
he will be treated, and if he ever holds the balance of power he
will be treated as well as the balance of our citizens.  My idea
is that the colored man should stand on an equality with the white
before the law; that he should honestly be protected in all his
rights; that he should be allowed to vote, and that his vote should
be counted.  It is a simple question of honesty.  The colored people
are doing well; they are industrious; they are trying to get an
education, and, on the whole, I think they are behaving fully as
well as the whites.  They are the most forgiving people in the
world, and about the only real Christians in our country.  They
have suffered enough, and for one I am on their side.  I think more
of honest black people than of dishonest whites, to say the least
of it.

_Question_.  Do you apprehend any trouble from the Southern leaders
in this closing session of Congress, in attempts to force pernicious
legislation?

_Answer_.  I do not.  The Southern leaders know that the doctrine
of State Sovereignty is dead.  They know that they cannot depend
upon the Northern Democrat, and they know that the best interests
of the South can only be preserved by admitting that the war settled
the questions and ideas fought for and against.  They know that
this country is a Nation, and that no party can possibly succeed
that advocates anything contrary to that.  My own opinion is that
most of the Southern leaders are heartily ashamed of the course
pursued by their Northern friends, and will take the first opportunity
to say so.

_Question_.  In what light do you regard the Chinaman?

_Answer_.  I am opposed to compulsory immigration, or cooley or
slave immigration.  If Chinamen are sent to this country by
corporations or companies under contracts that amount to slavery
or anything like it or near it, then I am opposed to it.  But I am
not prepared to say that I would be opposed to voluntary immigration.
I see by the papers that a new treaty has been agreed upon that
will probably be ratified and be satisfactory to all parties.  We
ought to treat China with the utmost fairness.  If our treaty is
wrong, amend it, but do so according to the recognized usage of
nations.  After what has been said and done in this country I think
there is very little danger of any Chinaman voluntarily coming
here.  By this time China must have an exceedingly exalted opinion
of our religion, and of the justice and hospitality born of our
most holy faith.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of making ex-Presidents Senators
for life?

_Answer_.  I am opposed to it.  I am against any man holding office
for life.  And I see no more reason for making ex-Presidents
Senators, than for making ex-Senators Presidents.  To me the idea
is preposterous.  Why should ex-Presidents be taken care of?  In
this country labor is not disgraceful, and after a man has been
President he has still the right to be useful.  I am personally
acquainted with several men who will agree, in consideration of
being elected to the presidency, not to ask for another office
during their natural lives.  The people of this country should
never allow a great man to suffer.  The hand, not of charity, but
of justice and generosity, should be forever open to those who have
performed great public service.

But the ex-Presidents of the future may not all be great and good
men, and bad ex-Presidents will not make good Senators.  If the
nation does anything, let it give a reasonable pension to ex-
Presidents.  No man feels like giving pension, power, or place to
General Grant simply because he was once President, but because he
was a great soldier, and led the armies of the nation to victory.
Make him a General, and retire him with the highest military title.
Let him grandly wear the laurels he so nobly won, and should the
sky at any time be darkened with a cloud of foreign war, this
country will again hand him the sword.  Such a course honors the
nation and the man.

_Question_.  Are we not entering upon the era of our greatest
prosperity?

_Answer_.  We are just beginning to be prosperous.  The Northern
Pacific Railroad is to be completed.  Forty millions of dollars
have just been raised by that company, and new States will soon be
born in the great Northwest.  The Texas Pacific will be pushed to
San Diego, and in a few years we will ride in a Pullman car from
Chicago to the City of Mexico.  The gold and silver mines are
yielding more and more, and within the last ten years more than
forty million acres of land have been changed from wilderness to
farms.  This country is beginning to grow.  We have just fairly
entered upon what I believe will be the grandest period of national
development and prosperity.  With the Republican party in power;
with good money; with unlimited credit; with the best land in the
world; with ninety thousand miles of railway; with mountains of
gold and silver; with hundreds of thousands of square miles of coal
fields; with iron enough for the whole world; with the best system
of common schools; with telegraph wires reaching every city and
town, so that no two citizens are an hour apart; with the telephone,
that makes everybody in the city live next door, and with the best
folks in the world, how can we help prospering until the continent
is covered with happy homes?

_Question_.  What do you think of civil service reform?

_Answer_.  I am in favor of it.  I want such civil service reform
that all the offices will be filled with good and competent
Republicans.  The majority should rule, and the men who are in
favor of the views of the majority should hold the offices.  I am
utterly opposed to the idea that a party should show its liberality
at the expense of its principles.  Men holding office can afford
to take their chances with the rest of us.  If they are Democrats,
they should not expect to succeed when their party is defeated.
I believe that there are enough good and honest Republicans in this
country to fill all the offices, and I am opposed to taking any
Democrats until the Republican supply is exhausted.

Men should not join the Republican party to get office.  Such men
are contemptible to the last degree.  Neither should a Republican
administration compel a man to leave the party to get a Federal
appointment.  After a great battle has been fought I do not believe
that the victorious general should reward the officers of the
conquered army.  My doctrine is, rewards for friends.

--_The Commercial_, Cincinnati, Ohio, December 6, 1880.
 

MR. BEECHER, MOSES AND THE NEGRO.

_Question_.  Mr. Beecher is here.  Have you seen him?

_Answer_.  No, I did not meet Mr. Beecher.  Neither did I hear him
lecture.  The fact is, that long ago I made up my mind that under
no circumstances would I attend any lecture or other entertainment
given at Lincoln Hall.  First, because the hall has been denied
me, and secondly, because I regard it as extremely unsafe.  The
hall is up several stories from the ground, and in case of the
slightest panic, in my judgment, many lives would be lost.  Had it
not been for this, and for the fact that the persons owning it
imagined that because they had control, the brick and mortar had
some kind of holy and sacred quality, and that this holiness is of
such a wonderful character that it would not be proper for a man
in that hall to tell his honest thoughts, I would have heard him.

_Question_.  Then I assume that you and Mr. Beecher have made up?

_Answer_.  There is nothing to be made up for so far as I know.
Mr. Beecher has treated me very well, and, I believe, a little too
well for his own peace of mind.  I have been informed that some
members of Plymouth Church felt exceedingly hurt that their pastor
should so far forget himself as to extend the right hand of fellowship
to one who differs from him upon what they consider very essential
points in theology.  You see I have denied with all my might, a
great many times, the infamous doctrine of eternal punishment.  I
have also had the temerity to suggest that I did not believe that
a being of infinite justice and mercy was the author of all that
I find in the Old Testament.  As, for instance, I have insisted
that God never commanded anybody to butcher women or to cut the
throats of prattling babes.  These orthodox gentlemen have rushed
to the rescue of Jehovah by insisting that he did all these horrible
things.  I have also maintained that God never sanctioned or upheld
human slavery; that he never would make one child to own and beat
another.

I have also expressed some doubts as to whether this same God ever
established the institution of polygamy.  I have insisted that the
institution is simply infamous; that it destroys the idea of home;
that it turns to ashes the most sacred words in our language, and
leaves the world a kind of den in which crawl the serpents of
selfishness and lust.  I have been informed that after Mr. Beecher
had treated me kindly a few members of his congregation objected,
and really felt ashamed that he had so forgotten himself.  After
that, Mr. Beecher saw fit to give his ideas of the position I had
taken.  In this he was not exceedingly kind, nor was his justice
very conspicuous.  But I cared nothing about that, not the least.
As I have said before, whenever Mr. Beecher says a good thing I
give him credit.  Whenever he does an unfair or unjust thing I
charge it to the account of his religion.  I have insisted, and I
still insist, that Mr. Beecher is far better than his creed.  I do
not believe that he believes in the doctrine of eternal punishment.
Neither do I believe that he believes in the literal truth of the
Scriptures.  And, after all, if the Bible is not true, it is hardly
worth while to insist upon its inspiration.  An inspired lie is
not better than an uninspired one.  If the Bible is true it does
not need to be inspired.  If it is not true, inspiration does not
help it.  So that after all it is simply a question of fact.  Is
it true?  I believe Mr. Beecher stated that one of my grievous
faults was that I picked out the bad things in the Bible.  How an
infinitely good and wise God came to put bad things in his book
Mr. Beecher does not explain.  I have insisted that the Bible is
not inspired, and, in order to prove that, have pointed out such
passages as I deemed unworthy to have been written even by a
civilized man or a savage.  I certainly would not endeavor to prove
that the Bible is uninspired by picking out its best passages.  I
admit that there are many good things in the Bible.  The fact that
there are good things in it does not prove its inspiration, because
there are thousands of other books containing good things, and yet
no one claims they are inspired.  Shakespeare's works contain a
thousand times more good things than the Bible, but no one claims
he was an inspired man.  It is also true that there are many bad
things in Shakespeare--many passages which I wish he had never
written.  But I can excuse Shakespeare, because he did not rise
absolutely above his time.  That is to say, he was a man; that is
to say, he was imperfect.  If anybody claimed now that Shakespeare
was actually inspired, that claim would be answered by pointing to
certain weak or bad or vulgar passages in his works.  But every
Christian will say that it is a certain kind of blasphemy to impute
vulgarity or weakness to God, as they are all obliged to defend
the weak, the bad and the vulgar, so long as they insist upon the
inspiration of the Bible.  Now, I pursued the same course with the
Bible that Mr. Beecher has pursued with me.  Why did he want to
pick out my bad things?  Is it possible that he is a kind of vulture
that sees only the carrion of another?  After all, has he not
pursued the same method with me that he blames me for pursuing in
regard to the Bible?  Of course he must pursue that method.  He
could not object to me and then point out passages that were not
objectionable.  If he found fault he had to find faults in order
to sustain his ground.  That is exactly what I have done with
Scriptures--nothing more and nothing less.  The reason I have thrown
away the Bible is that in many places it is harsh, cruel, unjust,
coarse, vulgar, atrocious, infamous.  At the same time, I admit
that it contains many passages of an excellent and splendid character
--many good things, wise sayings, and many excellent and just laws.

But I would like to ask this:  Suppose there were no passages in
the Bible except those upholding slavery, polygamy and wars of
extermination; would anybody then claim that it was the word of
God?  I would like to ask if there is a Christian in the world who
would not be overjoyed to find that every one of these passages
was an interpolation?  I would also like to ask Mr. Beecher if he
would not be greatly gratified to find that after God had written
the Bible the Devil had got hold of it, and interpolated all these
passages about slavery, polygamy, the slaughter of women and babes
and the doctrine of eternal punishment?  Suppose, as a matter of
fact, the Devil did get hold of it; what part of the Bible would
Mr. Beecher pick out as having been written by the Devil?  And if
he picks out these passages could not the Devil answer him by
saying, "You, Mr. Beecher, are like a vulture, a kind of buzzard,
flying through the tainted air of inspiration, and pouncing down
upon the carrion.  Why do you not fly like a dove, and why do you
not have the innocent ignorance of the dove, so that you could
light upon a carcass and imagine that you were surrounded by the
perfume of violets?"  The fact is that good things in a book do
not prove that it is inspired, but the presence of bad things does
prove that it is not.

_Question_.  What was the real difficulty between you and Moses,
Colonel, a man who has been dead for thousands of years?

_Answer_.  We never had any difficulty.  I have always taken pains
to say that Moses had nothing to do with the Pentateuch.  Those
books, in my judgment, were written several centuries after Moses
had become dust in his unknown sepulchre.  No doubt Moses was quite
a man in his day, if he ever existed at all.  Some people say that
Moses is exactly the same as "law-giver;" that is to say, as
Legislature, that is to say as Congress.  Imagine somebody in the
future as regarding the Congress of the United States as one person!
And then imagine that somebody endeavoring to prove that Congress
was always consistent.  But, whether Moses lived or not makes but
little difference to me.  I presume he filled the place and did
the work that he was compelled to do, and although according to
the account God had much to say to him with regard to the making
of altars, tongs, snuffers and candlesticks, there is much left
for nature still to tell.  Thinking of Moses as a man, admitting
that he was above his fellows, that he was in his day and generation
a leader, and, in a certain narrow sense, a patriot, that he was
the founder of the Jewish people; that he found them barbarians
and endeavored to control them by thunder and lightning, and found
it necessary to pretend that he was in partnership with the power
governing the universe; that he took advantage of their ignorance
and fear, just as politicians do now, and as theologians always
will, still, I see no evidence that the man Moses was any nearer
to God than his descendants, who are still warring against the
Philistines in every civilized part of the globe.  Moses was a
believer in slavery, in polygamy, in wars of extermination, in
religious persecution and intolerance and in almost everything that
is now regarded with loathing, contempt and scorn.  The Jehovah of
whom he speaks violated, or commands the violation of at least nine
of the Ten Commandments he gave.  There is one thing, however, that
can be said of Moses that cannot be said of any person who now
insists that he was inspired, and that is, he was in advance of his
time.

_Question_.  What do you think of the Buckner Bill for the colonization
of the negroes in Mexico?

_Answer_.  Where does Mr. Buckner propose to colonize the white
people, and what right has he to propose the colonization of six
millions of people?  Should we not have other bills to colonize
the Germans, the Swedes, the Irish, and then, may be, another bill
to drive the Chinese into the sea?  Where do we get the right to
say that the negroes must emigrate?

All such schemes will, in my judgment, prove utterly futile.
Perhaps the history of the world does not give an instance of the
emigration of six millions of people.  Notwithstanding the treatment
that Ireland has received from England, which may be designated as
a crime of three hundred years, the Irish still love Ireland.  All
the despotism in the world will never crush out of the Irish heart
the love of home--the adoration of the old sod.  The negroes of
the South have certainly suffered enough to drive them into other
countries; but after all, they prefer to stay where they were born.
They prefer to live where their ancestors were slaves, where fathers
and mothers were sold and whipped; and I don't believe it will be
possible to induce a majority of them to leave that land.  Of
course, thousands may leave, and in process of time millions may
go, but I don't believe emigration will ever equal their natural
increase.  As the whites of the South become civilized the reason
for going will be less and less.

I see no reason why the white and black men cannot live together
in the same land, under the same flag.  The beauty of liberty is
you cannot have it unless you give it away, and the more you give
away the more you have.  I know that my liberty is secure only
because others are free.

I am perfectly willing to live in a country with such men as
Frederick Douglass and Senator Bruce.  I have always preferred a
good, clever black man to a mean white man, and I am of the opinion
that I shall continue in that preference.  Now, if we could only
have a colonization bill that would get rid of all the rowdies,
all the rascals and hypocrites, I would like to see it carried out,
thought some people might insist that it would amount to a repudiation
of the national debt and that hardly enough would be left to pay
the interest.  No, talk as we will, the colored people helped to
save this Nation.  They have been at all times and in all places
the friends of our flag; a flag that never really protected them.
And for my part, I am willing that they should stand forever beneath
that flag, the equal in rights of all other people.  Politically,
if any black men are to be sent away, I want it understood that
each one is to be accompanied by a Democrat, so that the balance
of power, especially in New York, will not be disturbed.

_Question_.  I notice that leading Republican newspapers are advising
General Garfield to cut loose from the machine in politics; what
do you regard as the machine?

_Answer_.  All defeated candidates regard the persons who defeated
them as constituting a machine, and always imagine that there is
some wicked conspiracy at the bottom of the machine.  Some of the
recent reformers regard the people who take part in the early stages
of a political campaign--who attend caucuses and primaries, who
speak of politics to their neighbors, as members and parts of the
machine, and regard only those as good and reliable American citizens
who take no part whatever, simply reserving the right to grumble
after the work has been done by others.  Not much can be accomplished
in politics without an organization, and the moment an organization
is formed, and, you might say, just a little before, leading spirits
will be developed.  Certain men will take the lead, and the weaker
men will in a short time, unless they get all the loaves and fishes,
denounce the whole thing as a machine, and, to show how thoroughly
and honestly they detest the machine in politics, will endeavor to
organize a little machine themselves.  General Garfield has been
in politics for many years.  He knows the principal men in both
parties.  He knows the men who have not only done something, but
who are capable of doing something, and such men will not, in my
opinion, be neglected.  I do not believe that General Garfield will
do any act calculated to divide the Republican party.  No thoroughly
great man carries personal prejudice into the administration of
public affairs.  Of course, thousands of people will be prophesying
that this man is to be snubbed and another to be paid; but, in my
judgment, after the 4th of March most people will say that General
Garfield has used his power wisely and that he has neither sought
nor shunned men simply because he wished to pay debts--either of
love or hatred.

--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, January 31, 1881.
 

HADES, DELAWARE AND FREETHOUGHT.

_Question_.  Now that a lull has come in politics, I thought I
would come and see what is going on in the religious world?

_Answer_.  Well, from what little I learn, there has not been much
going on during the last year.  There are five hundred and twenty-
six Congregational Churches in Massachusetts, and two hundred of
these churches have not received a new member for an entire year,
and the others have scarcely held their own.  In Illinois there
are four hundred and eighty-three Presbyterian Churches, and they
have now fewer members than they had in 1879, and of the four
hundred and eighty-three, one hundred and eighty-three have not
received a single new member for twelve months.  A report has been
made, under the auspices of the Pan-Presbyterian Council, to the
effect that there are in the whole world about three millions of
Presbyterians.  This is about one-fifth of one per cent. of the
inhabitants of the world.  The probability is that of the three
million nominal Presbyterians, not more than two or three hundred
thousand actually believe the doctrine, and of the two or three
hundred thousand, not more than five or six hundred have any true
conception of what the doctrine is.  As the Presbyterian Church
has only been able to induce one-fifth of one per cent. of the
people to even call themselves Presbyterians, about how long will
it take, at this rate, to convert mankind?  The fact is, there
seems to be a general lull along the entire line, and just at
present very little is being done by the orthodox people to keep
their fellow-citizens out of hell.

_Question_.  Do you really think that the orthodox people now
believe in the old doctrine of eternal punishment, and that they
really think there is a kind of hell that our ancestors so carefully
described?

_Answer_.  I am afraid that the old idea is dying out, and that
many Christians are slowly giving up the consolations naturally
springing from the old belief.  Another terrible blow to the old
infamy is the fact that in the revised New Testament the word Hades
has been substituted.  As nobody knows exactly what Hades means,
it will not be quite so easy to frighten people at revivals by
threatening them with something that they don't clearly understand.
After this, when the impassioned orator cries out that all the
unconverted will be sent to Hades, the poor sinners, instead of
getting frightened, will begin to ask each other what and where
that is.  It will take many years of preaching to clothe that word
in all the terrors and horrors, pains, and penalties and pangs of
hell.  Hades is a compromise.  It is a concession to the philosophy
of our day.  It is a graceful acknowledgment to the growing spirit
of investigation, that hell, after all, is a barbaric mistake.
Hades is the death of revivals.  It cannot be used in song.  It
won't rhyme with anything with the same force that hell does.  It
is altogether more shadowy than hot.  It is not associated with
brimstone and flame.  It sounds somewhat indistinct, somewhat
lonesome, a little desolate, but not altogether uncomfortable.
For revival purposes, Hades is simply useless, and few conversions
will be made in the old way under the revised Testament.

_Question_.  Do you really think that the church is losing ground?

_Answer_.  I am not, as you probably know, connected with any
orthodox organization, and consequently have to rely upon them for
my information.  If they can be believed, the church is certainly
in an extremely bad condition.  I find that the Rev. Dr. Cuyler,
only a few days ago, speaking of the religious condition of Brooklyn
--and Brooklyn, you know, has been called the City of Churches--
states that the great mass of that Christian city was out of Christ,
and that more professing Christians went to the theatre than to
the prayer meeting. This, certainly, from their standpoint, is a
most terrible declaration.  Brooklyn, you know, is one of the great
religious centres of the world--a city in which nearly all the
people are engaged either in delivering or in hearing sermons; a
city filled with the editors of religious periodicals; a city of
prayer and praise; and yet, while prayer meetings are free, the
theatres, with the free list entirely suspended, catch more Christians
than the churches; and this happens while all the pulpits thunder
against the stage, and the stage remains silent as to the pulpit.
At the same meeting in which the Rev. Dr. Cuyler made his astounding
statements the Rev. Mr. Pentecost was the bearer of the happy news
that four out of five persons living in the city of Brooklyn were
going down to hell with no God and with no hope.  If he had read
the revised Testament he would have said "Hades," and the effect
of the statement would have been entirely lost.  If four-fifths of
the people of that great city are destined to eternal pain, certainly
we cannot depend upon churches for the salvation of the world.  At
the meeting of the Brooklyn pastors they were in doubt as to whether
they should depend upon further meetings, or upon a day of fasting
and prayer for the purpose of converting the city.

In my judgment, it would be much better to devise ways and means
to keep a good many people from fasting in Brooklyn.  If they had
more meat, they could get along with less meeting.  If fasting
would save a city, there are always plenty of hungry folks even in
that Christian town.  The real trouble with the church of to-day
is, that it is behind the intelligence of the people.  Its doctrines
no longer satisfy the brains of the nineteenth century; and if the
church proposes to hold its power, it must lose its superstitions.
The day of revivals is gone.  Only the ignorant and unthinking can
hereafter be impressed by hearing the orthodox creed.  Fear has in
it no reformatory power, and the more intelligent the world grows
the more despicable and contemptible the doctrine of eternal misery
will become.  The tendency of the age is toward intellectual liberty,
toward personal investigation.  Authority is no longer taken for
truth.  People are beginning to find that all the great and good
are not dead--that some good people are alive, and that the
demonstrations of to-day are fully equal to the mistaken theories
of the past.

_Question_.  How are you getting along with Delaware?

_Answer_.  First rate.  You know I have been wondering where Comegys
came from, and at last I have made the discovery.  I was told the
other day by a gentleman from Delaware that many years ago Colonel
Hazelitt died; that Colonel Hazelitt was an old Revolutionary
officer, and that when they were digging his grave they dug up
Comegys.  Back of that no one knows anything of his history.  The
only thing they know about him certainly, is, that he has never
changed one of his views since he was found, and that he never
will.  I am inclined to think, however, that he lives in a community
congenial to him.  For instance, I saw in a paper the other day
that within a radius of thirty miles around Georgetown, Delaware,
there are about two hundred orphan and friendless children.  These
children, it seems, were indentured to Delaware farmers by the
managers of orphan asylums and other public institutions in and
about Philadelphia.  It is stated in the paper, that:

"Many of these farmers are rough task-masters, and if a boy fails
to perform the work of an adult, he is almost certain to be cruelly
treated, half starved, and in the coldest weather wretchedly clad.
If he does the work, his life is not likely to be much happier,
for as a rule he will receive more kicks than candy.  The result
in either case is almost certain to be wrecked constitutions,
dwarfed bodies, rounded shoulders, and limbs crippled or rendered
useless by frost or rheumatism.  The principal diet of these boys
is corn pone.  A few days ago, Constable W. H. Johnston went to
the house of Reuben Taylor, and on entering the sitting room his
attention was attracted by the moans of its only occupant, a little
colored boy, who was lying on the hearth in front of the fireplace.
The boy's head was covered with ashes from the fire, and he did
not pay the slightest attention to the visitor, until Johnston
asked what made him cry.  Then the little fellow sat up and drawing
on old rag off his foot said, 'Look there.'  The sight that met
Johnston's eye was horrible beyond description.  The poor boy's
feet were so horribly frozen that the flesh had dropped off the
toes until the bones protruded.  The flesh on the sides, bottoms,
and tops of his feet was swollen until the skin cracked in many
places, and the inflamed flesh was sloughing off in great flakes.
The frost-bitten flesh extended to his knees, the joints of which
were terribly inflamed.  The right one had already begun suppurating.
This poor little black boy, covered with nothing but a cotton shirt,
drilling pants, a pair of nearly worn out brogans and a battered
old hat, on the morning of December 30th, the coldest day of the
season, when the mercury was seventeen degrees below zero, in the
face of a driving snow storm, was sent half a mile from home to
protect his master's unshucked corn from the depredations of
marauding cows and crows.  He remained standing around in the snow
until four o'clock, then he drove the cows home, received a piece
of cold corn pone, and was sent out in the snow again to chop stove
wood till dark.  Having no bed, he slept that night in front of
the fireplace, with his frozen feet buried in the ashes.  Dr. C.
H. Richards found it necessary to cut off the boy's feet as far
back as the ankle and the instep."

This was but one case in several.  Personally, I have no doubt that
Mr. Reuben Taylor entirely agrees with Chief Justice Comegys on
the great question of blasphemy, and probably nothing would so
gratify Mr. Reuben Taylor as to see some man in a Delaware jail
for the crime of having expressed an honest thought.  No wonder
that in the State of Delaware the Christ of intellectual liberty
has been crucified between the pillory and the whipping-post.  Of
course I know that there are thousands of most excellent people in
that State--people who believe in intellectual liberty, and who
only need a little help--and I am doing what I can in that direction
--to repeal the laws that now disgrace the statute book of that
little commonwealth.  I have seen many people from that State lately
who really wish that Colonel Hazelitt had never died.

_Question_.  What has the press generally said with regard to the
action of Judge Comegys?  Do they, so far as you know, justify his
charge?

_Answer_.  A great many papers having articles upon the subject
have been sent to me.  A few of the religious papers seem to think
that the Judge did the best he knew, and there is one secular paper
called the _Evening News_, published at Chester, Pa., that thinks
"that the rebuke from so high a source of authority will have a
most excellent effect, and will check religious blasphemers from
parading their immoral creeds before the people."  The editor of
this paper should at once emigrate to the State of Delaware, where
he properly belongs.  He is either a native of Delaware, or most
of his subscribers are citizens of that country; or, it may be that
he is a lineal descendant of some Hessian, who deserted during the
Revolutionary war.  Most of the newspapers in the United States
are advocates of mental freedom.  Probably nothing on earth has
been so potent for good as an untrammeled, fearless press.  Among
the papers of importance there is not a solitary exception.  No
leading journal in the United States can be found upon the side of
intellectual slavery.  Of course, a few rural sheets edited by
gentlemen, as Mr. Greeley would say, "whom God in his inscrutable
wisdom had allowed to exist," may be found upon the other side,
and may be small enough, weak enough and mean enough to pander to
the lowest and basest prejudices of their most ignorant subscribers.
These editors disgrace their profession and exert about the same
influence upon the heads as upon the pockets of their subscribers
--that is to say, they get little and give less.

_Question_.  Do you not think after all, the people who are in
favor of having you arrested for blasphemy, are acting in accordance
with the real spirit of the Old and New Testaments?

_Answer_.  Of course, they act in exact accordance with many of
the commands in the Old Testament, and in accordance with several
passages in the New.  At the same time, it may be said that they
violate passages in both.  If the Old Testament is true, and if it
is the inspired word of God, of course, an Infidel ought not be
allowed to live; and if the New Testament is true, an unbeliever
should not be permitted to speak.  There are many passages, though,
in the New Testament, that should protect even an Infidel.  Among
them is this:  "Do unto others as ye would that others should do
unto you."  But that is a passage that has probably had as little
effect upon the church as any other in the Bible.  So far as I am
concerned, I am willing to adopt that passage, and I am willing to
extend to every other human being every right that I claim for
myself.  If the churches would act upon this principle, if they
would say--every soul, every mind, may think and investigate for
itself; and around all, and over all, shall be thrown the sacred
shield of liberty, I should be on their side.

_Question_.  How do you stand with the clergymen, and what is their
opinion of you and of your views?

_Answer_.  Most of them envy me; envy my independence; envy my
success; think that I ought to starve; that the people should not
hear me; say that I do what I do for money, for popularity; that I
am actuated by hatred of all that is good and tender and holy in
human nature; think that I wish to tear down the churches, destroy
all morality and goodness, and usher in the reign of crime and
chaos.  They know that shepherds are unnecessary in the absence of
wolves, and it is to their interest to convince their sheep that
they, the sheep, need protection.  This they are willing to give
them for half the wool.  No doubt, most of these minsters are
honest, and are doing what they consider their duty.  Be this as
it may, they feel the power slipping from their hands.  They know
that the idea is slowly growing that they are not absolutely
necessary for the protection of society.  They know that the
intellectual world cares little for what they say, and that the
great tide of human progress flows on careless of their help or
hindrance.  So long as they insist upon the inspiration of the
Bible, they are compelled to take the ground that slavery was once
a divine institution; they are forced to defend cruelties that
would shock the heart of a savage, and besides, they are bound to
teach the eternal horror of everlasting punishment.

They poison the minds of children; they deform the brain and pollute
the imagination by teaching the frightful and infamous dogma of
endless misery.  Even the laws of Delaware shock the enlightened
public of to-day.  In that State they simply fine and imprison a
man for expressing his honest thoughts; and yet, if the churches
are right, God will damn a man forever for the same offence.  The
brain and heart of our time cannot be satisfied with the ancient
creeds.  The Bible must be revised again.  Most of the creeds must
be blotted out.  Humanity must take the place of theology.
Intellectual liberty must stand in every pulpit.  There must be
freedom in all the pews, and every human soul must have the right
to express its honest thought.

--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, March 19, 1881.
 

A REPLY TO THE REV. MR. LANSING.*

[* Rev. Isaac J. Lansing of Meriden, Conn., recently denounced Col.
Robert G. Ingersoll from the pulpit of the Meriden Methodist Church,
and had the Opera House closed against him.  This led a _Union_ reporter
to show Colonel Ingersoll what Mr. Lansing had said and to interrogate
him with the following result.]

_Question_.  Did you favor the sending of obscene matter through
the mails as alleged by the Rev. Mr. Lansing?

_Answer_.  Of course not, and no honest man ever thought that I
did.  This charge is too malicious and silly to be answered.  Mr.
Lansing knows better.  He has made this charge many times and he
will make it again.

_Question_.  Is it a fact that there are thousands of clergymen in
the country whom you would fear to meet in fair debate?

_Answer_.  No; the fact is I would like to meet them all in one.
The pulpit is not burdened with genius.  There a few great men
engaged in preaching, but they are not orthodox.  I cannot conceive
that a Freethinker has anything to fear from the pulpit, except
misrepresentation.  Of course, there are thousands of ministers
too small to discuss with--ministers who stand for nothing in the
church--and with such clergymen I cannot afford to discuss anything.
If the Presbyterians, or the Congregationalists, or the Methodists
would select some man, and endorse him as their champion, I would
like to meet him in debate.  Such a man I will pay to discuss with
me.  I will give him most excellent wages, and pay all the expenses
at the discussion besides.  There is but one safe course for the
ministers--they must assert.  They must declare.  They must swear
to it and stick to it, but they must not try to reason.

_Question_.  You have never seen Rev. Mr. Lansing.  To the people
of Meriden and thereabouts he is well-known.  Judging from what
has been told you of his utterances and actions, what kind of a
man would you take him to be?

_Answer_.  I would take him to be a Christian.  He talks like one,
and he acts like one.  If Christianity is right, Lansing is right.
If salvation depends upon belief, and if unbelievers are to be
eternally damned, then an Infidel has no right to speak.  He should
not be allowed to murder the souls of his fellow-men.  Lansing does
the best he knows how.  He thinks that God hates an unbeliever,
and he tries to act like God.  Lansing knows that he must have the
right to slander a man whom God is to eternally damn.

_Question_.  Mr. Lansing speaks of you as a wolf coming with fangs
sharpened by three hundred dollars a night to tear the lambs of
his flock.  What do you say to that?

_Answer_.  All I have to say is, that I often get three times that
amount, and sometimes much more.  I guess his lambs can take care
of themselves.  I am not very fond of mutton anyway.  Such talk
Mr. Lansing ought to be ashamed of.  The idea that he is a shepherd
--that he is on guard--is simply preposterous.  He has few sheep
in his congregation that know as little on the wolf question as
he does.  He ought to know that his sheep support him--his sheep
protect him; and without the sheep poor Lansing would be devoured
by the wolves himself.

_Question_.  Shall you sue the Opera House management for breach
of contract?

_Answer_.  I guess not; but I may pay Lansing something for
advertising my lecture.  I suppose Mr. Wilcox (who controls the
Opera House) did what he thought was right.  I hear he is a good
man.  He probably got a little frightened and began to think about
the day of judgment.  He could not help it, and I cannot help
laughing at him.

_Question_.  Those in Meriden who most strongly oppose you are
radical Republicans.  Is it not a fact that you possess the confidence
and friendship of some of the most respected leaders of that party?

_Answer_.  I think that all the respectable ones are friends of
mine.  I am a Republican because I believe in the liberty of the
body, and I am an Infidel because I believe in the liberty of the
mind.  There is no need of freeing cages.  Let us free the birds.
If Mr. Lansing knew me, he would be a great friend.  He would
probably annoy me by the frequency and length of his visits.

_Question_.  During the recent presidential campaign did any
clergymen denounce you for your teachings, that you are aware of?

_Answer_.  Some did, but they would not if they had been running
for office on the Republican ticket.

_Question_.  What is most needed in our public men?

_Answer_.  Hearts and brains.

_Question_.  Would people be any more moral solely because of a
disbelief in orthodox teaching and in the Bible as an inspired
book, in your opinion?

_Answer_.  Yes; if a man really believes that God once upheld
slavery; that he commanded soldiers to kill women and babes; that
he believed in polygamy; that he persecuted for opinion's sake;
that he will punish forever, and that he hates an unbeliever, the
effect in my judgment will be bad.  It always has been bad.  This
belief built the dungeons of the Inquisition.  This belief made
the Puritan murder the Quaker, and this belief has raised the devil
with Mr. Lansing.

_Question_.  Do you believe there will ever be a millennium, and
if so how will it come about?

_Answer_.  It will probably start in Meriden, as I have been informed
that Lansing is going to leave.

_Question_.  Is there anything else bearing upon the question at
issue or that would make good reading, that I have forgotten, that
you would like to say?

_Answer_.  Yes.  Good-bye.

--_The Sunday Union_, New Haven, Conn., April 10, 1881.
 

BEACONSFIELD, LENT AND REVIVALS.

_Question_.  What have you to say about the attack of Dr. Buckley
on you, and your lecture?

_Answer_.  I never heard of Dr. Buckley until after I had lectured
in Brooklyn.  He seems to think that it was extremely ill bred in
me to deliver a lecture on the "Liberty of Man, Woman and Child,"
during Lent.  Lent is just as good as any other part of the year,
and no part can be too good to do good.  It was not a part of my
object to hurt the feelings of the Episcopalians and Catholics.
If they think that there is some subtle relation between hunger
and heaven, or that faith depends upon, or is strengthened by
famine, or that veal, during Lent, is the enemy of virtue, or that
beef breeds blasphemy, while fish feeds faith--of course, all this
is nothing to me.  They have a right to say that vice depends upon
victuals, sanctity on soup, religion on rice and chastity on cheese,
but they have no right to say that a lecture on liberty is an insult
to them because they are hungry.  I suppose that Lent was instituted
in memory of the Savior's fast.  At one time it was supposed that
only a divine being could live forty days without food.  This
supposition has been overthrown.

It has been demonstrated by Dr. Tanner to be utterly without
foundation.  What possible good did it do the world for Christ to
go without food for forty days?  Why should we follow such an
example?  As a rule, hungry people are cross, contrary, obstinate,
peevish and unpleasant.  A good dinner puts a man at peace with
all the world--makes him generous, good natured and happy.  He
feels like kissing his wife and children.  The future looks bright.
He wants to help the needy.  The good in him predominates, and he
wonders that any man was ever stingy or cruel.  Your good cook is
a civilizer, and without good food, well prepared, intellectual
progress is simply impossible.  Most of the orthodox creeds were
born of bad cooking.  Bad food produced dyspepsia, and dyspepsia
produced Calvinism, and Calvinism is the cancer of Christianity.
Oatmeal is responsible for the worst features of Scotch Presbyterianism.
Half cooked beans account for the religion of the Puritans.  Fried
bacon and saleratus biscuit underlie the doctrine of State Rights.
Lent is a mistake, fasting is a blunder, and bad cooking is a crime.

_Question_.  It is stated that you went to Brooklyn while Beecher
and Talmage were holding revivals, and that you did so for the
purpose of breaking them up.  How is this?

_Answer_.  I had not the slightest idea of interfering with the
revivals.  They amounted to nothing.  They were not alive enough
to be killed.  Surely one lecture could not destroy two revivals.
Still, I think that if all the persons engaged in the revivals had
spent the same length of time in cleaning the streets, the good
result would have been more apparent.  The truth is, that the old
way of converting people will have to be abandoned.  The Americans
are getting hard to scare, and a revival without the "scare" is
scarcely worth holding.  Such maniacs as Hammond and the "Boy
Preacher" fill asylums and terrify children.  After saying what he
has about hell, Mr. Beecher ought to know that he is not the man
to conduct a revival.  A revival sermon with hell left out--with
the brimstone gone--with the worm that never dies, dead, and the
Devil absent--is the broadest farce.  Mr. Talmage believes in the
ancient way.  With him hell is a burning reality.  He can hear the
shrieks and groans.  He is of that order of mind that rejoices in
these things.  If he could only convince others, he would be a
great revivalist.  He cannot terrify, he astonishes.  He is the
clown of the horrible--one of Jehovah's jesters.  I am not responsible
for the revival failure in Brooklyn.  I wish I were.  I would have
the happiness of knowing that I had been instrumental in preserving
the sanity of my fellow-men.

_Question_.  How do you account for these attacks?

_Answer_.  It was not so much what I said that excited the wrath
of the reverend gentlemen as the fact that I had a great house.
They contrasted their failure with my success.  The fact is, the
people are getting tired of the old ideas.  They are beginning to
think for themselves.  Eternal punishment seems to them like eternal
revenge.  They see that Christ could not atone for the sins of
others; that belief ought not to be rewarded and honest doubt
punished forever; that good deeds are better than bad creeds, and
that liberty is the rightful heritage of every soul.

_Question_.  Were you an admirer of Lord Beaconsfield?

_Answer_.  In some respects.  He was on our side during the war,
and gave it as his opinion that the Union would be preserved.  Mr.
Gladstone congratulated Jefferson Davis on having founded a new
nation.  I shall never forget Beaconsfield for his kindness, nor
Gladstone for his malice.  Beaconsfield was an intellectual gymnast,
a political athlete, one of the most adroit men in the world.  He
had the persistence of his race.  In spite of the prejudices of
eighteen hundred years, he rose to the highest position that can
be occupied by a citizen.  During his administration England again
became a Continental power and played her game of European chess.
I have never regarded Beaconsfield as a man controlled by principle,
or by his heart.  He was strictly a politician.  He always acted
as though he thought the clubs were looking at him.  He knew all
the arts belonging to his trade.  He would have succeeded anywhere,
if by "succeeding" is meant the attainment of position and power.
But after all, such men are splendid failures.  They give themselves
and others a great deal of trouble--they wear the tinsel crown of
temporary success and then fade from public view.  They astonish
the pit, they gain the applause of the galleries, but when the
curtain falls there is nothing left to benefit mankind.  Beaconsfield
held convictions somewhat in contempt.  He had the imagination of
the East united with the ambition of an Englishman.  With him, to
succeed was to have done right.

_Question_.  What do you think of him as an author?

_Answer_.  Most of his characters are like himself--puppets moved
by the string of self-interest.  The men are adroit, the women
mostly heartless.  They catch each other with false bait.  They
have great worldly wisdom.  Their virtue and vice are mechanical.
They have hearts like clocks--filled with wheels and springs.  The
author winds them up.  In his novels Disraeli allows us to enter
the greenroom of his heart.  We see the ropes, the pulleys and the
old masks.  In all things, in politics and in literature, he was
cold, cunning, accurate, able and successful.  His books will, in
a little while, follow their author to their grave.  After all,
the good will live longest.

--Washington correspondent, _Brooklyn Eagle_, April 24, 1881.
 

ANSWERING THE NEW YORK MINISTERS.*

[* Ever since Colonel Ingersoll began the delivery of his lecture
called _The Great Infidels_, the ministers of the country have
made him the subject of special attack.  One week ago last Sunday
the majority of the leading ministers in New York made replies to
Ingersoll's latest lecture.  What he has to say to these replies
will be found in a report of an interview with Colonel Ingersoll.

No man is harder to pin down for a long talk than the Colonel.  He is
so beset with visitors and eager office seekers anxious for help,
that he can hardly find five minutes unoccupied during an entire day.
Through the shelter of a private room and the guardianship of a stout
colored servant, the Colonel was able to escape the crowd of seekers
after his personal charity long enough to give some time to answer
some of the ministerial arguments advanced against him in New York.]

_Question_.  Have you seen the attacks made upon you by certain
ministers of New York, published in the _Herald_ last Sunday?

_Answer_.  Yes, I read, or heard read, what was in Monday's _Herald_.
I do not know that you could hardly call them attacks.  They are
substantially a repetition of what the pulpit has been saying for
a great many hundred years, and what the pulpit will say just so
long as men are paid for suppressing truth and for defending
superstition.  One of these gentlemen tells the lambs of his flock
that three thousand men and a few women--probably with quite an
emphasis on the word "Few"--gave one dollar each to hear their
Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed.  Probably nothing is so
hard for the average preacher to bear as the fact that people are
not only willing to hear the other side, but absolutely anxious to
pay for it.  The dollar that these people paid hurt their feelings
vastly more than what was said after they were in.  Of course, it
is a frightful commentary on the average intellect of the pulpit
that a minister cannot get so large an audience when he preaches
for nothing, as an Infidel can draw at a dollar a head.  If I
depended upon a contribution box, or upon passing a saucer that
would come back to the stage enriched with a few five cent pieces,
eight or ten dimes, and a lonesome quarter, these gentlemen would,
in all probability, imagine Infidelity was not to be feared.

The churches were all open on that Sunday, and all could go who
desired.  Yet they were not full, and the pews were nearly as empty
of people as the pulpit of ideas.  The truth is, the story is
growing old, the ideas somewhat moss-covered, and everything has
a wrinkled and withered appearance.  This gentleman says that these
people went to hear their Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed.
Is it possible that in a city where so many steeples pierce the
air, and hundreds of sermons are preached every Sunday, there are
three thousand men, and a few women, so anxious to hear "their
Maker cursed and their Savior ridiculed" that they are willing to
pay a dollar each?  The gentleman knew that nobody cursed anybody's
Maker.  He knew that the statement was utterly false and without
the slightest foundation.  He also knew that nobody had ridiculed
the Savior of anybody, but, on the contrary, that I had paid a
greater tribute to the character of Jesus Christ than any minister
in New York has the capacity to do.  Certainly it is not cursing
the Maker of anybody to say that the God described in the Old
Testament is not the real God.  Certainly it is not cursing God to
declare that the real God never sanctioned slavery or polygamy, or
commanded wars of extermination, or told a husband to separate from
his wife if she differed with him in religion.  The people who say
these things of God--if there is any God at all--do what little
there is in their power, unwittingly of course, to destroy his
reputation.  But I have done something to rescue the reputation of
the Deity from the slanders of the pulpit.  If there is any God,
I expect to find myself credited on the heavenly books for my
defence of him.  I did say that our civilization is due not to
piety, but to Infidelity.  I did say that every great reformer had
been denounced as an Infidel in his day and generation.  I did say
that Christ was an Infidel, and that he was treated in his day very
much as the orthodox preachers treat an honest man now.  I did say
that he was tried for blasphemy and crucified by bigots.  I did
say that he hated and despised the church of his time, and that he
denounced the most pious people of Jerusalem as thieves and vipers.
And I suggested that should he come again he might have occasion
to repeat the remarks that he then made.  At the same time I admitted
that there are thousands and thousands of Christians who are
exceedingly good people.  I never did pretend that the fact that
a man was a Christian even tended to show that he was a bad man.
Neither have I ever insisted that the fact that a man is an Infidel
even tends to show what, in other respects, his character is.  But
I always have said, and I always expect to say, that a Christian
who does not believe in absolute intellectual liberty is a curse
to mankind, and that an Infidel who does believe in absolute
intellectual liberty is a blessing to this world.  We cannot expect
all Infidels to be good, nor all Christians to be bad, and we might
make some mistakes even if we selected these people ourselves.  It
is admitted by the Christians that Christ made a great mistake when
he selected Judas.  This was a mistake of over eight per cent.

Chaplain Newman takes pains to compare some great Christians with
some great Infidels.  He compares Washington with Julian, and
insists, I suppose, that Washington was a great Christian.  Certainly
he is not very familiar with the history of Washington, or he never
would claim that he was particularly distinguished in his day for
what is generally known as vital piety.  That he went through the
ordinary forms of Christianity nobody disputes.  That he listened
to sermons without paying any particular attention to them, no one
will deny.  Julian, of course, was somewhat prejudiced against
Christianity, but that he was one of the greatest men of antiquity
no one acquainted with the history of Rome can honestly dispute.
When he was made emperor he found at the palace hundreds of gentlemen
who acted as barbers, hair-combers, and brushers for the emperor.
He dismissed them all, remarking that he was able to wash himself.
These dismissed office-holders started the story that he was dirty
in his habits, and a minister of the nineteenth century was found
silly enough to believe the story.  Another thing that probably
got him into disrepute in that day, he had no private chaplains.
As a matter of fact, Julian was forced to pretend that he was a
Christian in order to save his life.  The Christians of that day
were of such a loving nature that any man who differed with them
was forced to either fall a victim to their ferocity or seek safety
in subterfuge.  The real crime that Julian committed, and the only
one that has burned itself into the very heart and conscience of
the Christian world, is, that he transferred the revenues of the
Christian churches to heathen priests.  Whoever stands between a
priest and his salary will find that he has committed the unpardonable
sin commonly known as the sin against the Holy Ghost.

This gentleman also compares Luther with Voltaire.  If he will read
the life of Luther by Lord Brougham, he will find that in his
ordinary conversation he was exceedingly low and vulgar, and that
no respectable English publisher could be found who would soil
paper with the translation.  If he will take the pains to read an
essay by Macaulay, he will find that twenty years after the death
of Luther there were more Catholics than when he was born.  And
that twenty years after the death of Voltaire there were millions
less than when he was born.  If he will take just a few moments to
think, he will find that the last victory of Protestantism was in
Holland; that there has never been one since, and will never be
another.  If he would really like to think, and enjoy for a few
moments the luxury of having an idea, let him ponder for a little
while over the instructive fact that languages having their root
in the Latin have generally been spoken in Catholic countries, and
that those languages having their root in the ancient German are
now mostly spoken by people of Protestant proclivities.  It may
occur to him, after thinking of this a while, that there is something
deeper in the question than he has as yet perceived.  Luther's last
victory, as I said before, was in Holland; but the victory of
Voltaire goes on from day to day.  Protestantism is not holding
its own with Catholicism, even in the United States.  I saw the
other day the statistics, I believe, of the city of Chicago, showing
that, while the city had increased two or three hundred per cent.,
Protestantism had lagged behind at the rate of twelve per cent.
I am willing for one, to have the whole question depend upon a
comparison of the worth and work of Voltaire and Luther.  It may
be, too, that the gentleman forgot to tell us that Luther himself
gave consent to a person high in office to have two wives, but
prudently suggested to him that he had better keep it as still as
possible.  Luther was, also, a believer in a personal Devil.  He
thought that deformed children had been begotten by an evil spirit.
On one occasion he told a mother that, in his judgment, she had
better drown her child; that he had no doubt that the Devil was
its father.  This same Luther made this observation:  "Universal
toleration is universal error, and universal error is universal
hell."  From this you will see that he was an exceedingly good man,
but mistaken upon many questions.  So, too, he laughed at the
Copernican system, and wanted to know if those fool astronomers
could undo the work of God.  He probably knew as little about
science as the reverend gentleman does about history.

_Question_.  Does he compare any other Infidels with Christians?

_Answer_.  Oh, yes; he compares Lord Bacon with Diderot.  I have
never claimed that Diderot was a saint.  I have simply insisted
that he was a great man; that he was grand enough to say that
"incredulity is the beginning of philosophy;" that he had sense
enough to know that the God described by the Catholics and Protestants
of his day was simply an impossible monster; and that he also had
the brain to see that the little selfish heaven occupied by a few
monks and nuns and idiots they had fleeced, was hardly worth going
to; in other words, that he was a man of common sense, greatly in
advance of his time, and that he did what he could to increase the
sum of human enjoyment to the end that there might be more happiness
in this world.

The gentleman compares him with Lord Bacon, and yet, if he will
read the trials of that day--I think in the year 1620--he will find
that the Christian Lord Bacon, the pious Lord Bacon, was charged
with receiving pay for his opinions, and, in some instances, pay
from both sides; that the Christian Lord Bacon, at first upon his
honor as a Christian lord, denied the whole business; that afterward
the Christian Lord Bacon, upon his honor as a Christian lord,
admitted the truth of the whole business, and that, therefore, the
Christian Lord Bacon was convicted and sentenced to pay a fine of
forty thousand pounds, and rendered infamous and incapable of
holding any office.  Now, understand me, I do not think Bacon took
bribes because he was a Christian, because there have been many
Christian judges perfectly honest; but, if the statement of the
reverend gentlemen of New York is true, his being a Christian did
not prevent his taking bribes.  And right here allow me to thank
the gentleman with all my heart for having spoken of Lord Bacon in
this connection.  I have always admired the genius of Bacon, and
have always thought of his fall with an aching heart, and would
not now have spoken of his crime had not his character been flung
in my face by a gentleman who asks his God to kill me for having
expressed my honest thought.

The same gentleman compares Newton with Spinoza.  In the first
place, there is no ground of parallel.  Newton was a very great
man and a very justly celebrated mathematician.  As a matter of
fact, he is not celebrated for having discovered the law of
gravitation.  That was known for thousands of years before he was
born; and if the reverend gentleman would read a little more he
would find that Newton's discovery was not that there is such a
law as gravitation, but that bodies attract each other "with a
force proportional directly to the quantity of matter they contain,
and inversely to the squares of their distances."  I do not think
he made the discoveries on account of his Christianity.  Laplace
was certainly in many respects as great a mathematician and
astronomer, but he was not a Christian.

Descartes was certainly not much inferior to Newton as a mathematician,
and thousands insist that he was his superior; yet he was not a
Christian.  Euclid, if I remember right, was not a Christian, and
yet he had quite a turn for mathematics.  As a matter of fact,
Christianity got its idea of algebra from the Mohammedans, and,
without algebra, astronomical knowledge of to-day would have been
impossible.  Christianity did not even invent figures.  We got
those from the Arabs.  The very word "algebra" is Arabic.  The
decimal system, I believe, however, was due to a German, but whether
he was a Christian or not, I do not know.

We find that the Chinese calculated eclipses long before Christ
was born; and, exactness being the rule at that time, there is an
account of two astronomers having been beheaded for failing to tell
the coming of an eclipse to the minute; yet they were not Christians.
There is another fact connected with Newton, and that is that he
wrote a commentary on the Book of Revelation.  The probability is
that a sillier commentary was never written.  It was so perfectly
absurd and laughable that some one--I believe it was Voltaire--said
that while Newton had excited the envy of the intellectual world
by his mathematical accomplishments, it had gotten even with him
the moment his commentaries were published.  Spinoza was not a
mathematician, particularly.  He was a metaphysician, an honest
thinker, whose influence is felt, and will be felt so long as these
great questions have the slightest interest for the human brain.

He also compares Chalmers with Hume.  Chalmers gained his notoriety
from preaching what are known as the astronomical sermons, and, I
suppose, was quite a preacher in his day.

But Hume was a thinker, and his works will live for ages after Mr.
Chalmers' sermons will have been forgotten.  Mr. Chalmers has never
been prominent enough to have been well known by many people.  He
may have been an exceedingly good man, and derived, during his
life, great consolation from a belief in the damnation of infants.

Mr. Newman also compares Wesley with Thomas Paine.  When Thomas
Paine was in favor of human liberty, Wesley was against it.  Thomas
Paine wrote a pamphlet called "Common Sense," urging the colonies
to separate themselves from Great Britain.  Wesley wrote a treatise
on the other side.  He was the enemy of human liberty; and if his
advice could have been followed we would have been the colonies of
Great Britain still.  We never would have had a President in need
of a private chaplain.  Mr. Wesley had not a scientific mind.  He
preached a sermon once on the cause and cure of earthquakes, taking
the ground that earthquakes were caused by sins, and that the only
way to stop them was to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  He also
laid down some excellent rules for rearing children, that is, from
a Methodist standpoint.  His rules amounted to about this:

  _First_.  Never give them what they want.
  _Second_.  Never give them what you intend to give them, at the time
    they want it.
  _Third_.  Break their wills at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. Wesley made every family an inquisition, every father and mother
inquisitors, and all the children helpless victims.  One of his
homes would give an exceedingly vivid idea of hell.  At the same
time, Mr. Wesley was a believer in witches and wizards, and knew
all about the Devil.  At his request God performed many miracles.
On several occasions he cured his horse of lameness.  On others,
dissipated Mr. Wesley's headaches.  Now and then he put off rain
on account of a camp meeting, and at other times stopped the wind
blowing at the special request of Mr. Wesley.  I have no doubt that
Mr. Wesley was honest in all this,--just as honest as he was
mistaken.  And I also admit that he was the founder of a church
that does extremely well in new countries, and that thousands of
Methodists have been exceedingly good men.  But I deny that he ever
did anything for human liberty.  While Mr. Wesley was fighting the
Devil and giving his experience with witches and wizards, Thomas
Paine helped to found a free nation, helped to enrich the air with
another flag.  Wesley was right on one thing, though.  He was
opposed to slavery, and, I believe, called it the sum of all
villainies.  I have always been obliged to him for that.  I do not
think he said it because he was a Methodist; but Methodism, as he
understood it, did not prevent his saying it, and Methodism as
others understood it, did not prevent men from being slaveholders,
did not prevent them from selling babes from mothers, and in the
name of God beating the naked back of toil.  I think, on the whole,
Paine did more for the world than Mr. Wesley.  The difference
between an average Methodist and an average Episcopalian is not
worth quarreling about.  But the difference between a man who
believes in despotism and one who believes in liberty is almost
infinite.  Wesley changed Episcopalians into Methodists; Paine
turned lickspittles into men.  Let it be understood, once for all,
that I have never claimed that Paine was perfect.  I was very glad
that the reverend gentleman admitted that he was a patriot and the
foe of tyrants; that he sympathized with the oppressed, and befriended
the helpless; that he favored religious toleration, and that he
weakened the power of the Catholic Church.  I am glad that he made
these admissions.  Whenever it can be truthfully said of a man that
he loved his country, hated tyranny, sympathized with the oppressed,
and befriended the helpless, nothing more is necessary.  If God
can afford to damn such a man, such a man can afford to be damned.
While Paine was the foe of tyrants, Christians were the tyrants.
When he sympathized with the oppressed, the oppressed were the
victims of Christians.  When he befriended the helpless, the helpless
were the victims of Christians.  Paine never founded an inquisition;
never tortured a human being; never hoped that anybody's tongue
would be paralyzed, and was always opposed to private chaplains.

It might be well for the reverend gentleman to continue his
comparisons, and find eminent Christians to put, for instance,
along with Humboldt, the Shakespeare of science; somebody by the
side of Darwin, as a naturalist; some gentleman in England to stand
with Tyndall, or Huxley; some Christian German to stand with Haeckel
and Helmholtz.  May be he knows some Christian statesman that he
would compare with Gambetta.  I would advise him to continue his
parallels.

_Question_.  What have you to say of the Rev. Dr. Fulton?

_Answer_.  The Rev. Dr. Fulton is a great friend of mine.  I am
extremely sorry to find that he still believes in a personal Devil,
and I greatly regret that he imagines that this Devil has so much
power that he can take possession of a human being and deprive God
of their services.  It is in sorrow and not in anger, that I find
that he still believes in this ancient superstition.  I also regret
that he imagines that I am leading young men to eternal ruin.  It
occurs to me that if there is an infinite God, he ought not to
allow anybody to lead young men to eternal ruin.  If anything I
have said, or am going to say, has a tendency to lead young men to
eternal ruin, I hope that if there is a God with the power to
prevent me, that he will use it.  Dr. Fulton admits that in politics
I am on the right side.  I presume he makes this concession because
he is a Republican.  I am in favor of universal education, of
absolute intellectual liberty.  I am in favor, also, of equal rights
to all.  As I have said before we have spent millions and millions
of dollars and rivers of blood to free the bodies of men; in other
words, we have been freeing the cages.  My proposition now is to
give a little liberty to the birds.  I am not willing to stop where
a man can simply reap the fruit of his hand.  I wish him, also, to
enjoy the liberty of his brain.  I am not against any truth in the
New Testament.  I did say that I objected to religion because it
made enemies and not friends.  The Rev. Dr. says that is one reason
why he likes religion.  Dr. Fulton tells me that the Bible is the
gift of God to man.  He also tells me that the Bible is true, and
that God is its author.  If the Bible is true and God is its author,
then God was in favor of slavery four thousand years ago.  He was
also in favor of polygamy and religious intolerance.  In other
words, four thousand years ago he occupied the exact position the
Devil is supposed to occupy now.  If the Bible teaches anything it
teaches man to enslave his brother, that is to say, if his brother
is a heathen.  The God of the Bible always hated heathens.  Dr.
Fulton also says that the Bible is the basis of all law.  Yet, if
the Legislature of New York would re-enact next winter the Mosaic
code, the members might consider themselves lucky if they were not
hung upon their return home.  Probably Dr. Fulton thinks that had
it not been for the Ten Commandments, nobody would ever have thought
that stealing was wrong.  I have always had an idea that men objected
to stealing because the industrious did not wish to support the
idle; and I have a notion that there has always been a law against
murder, because a large majority of people have always objected to
being murdered.  If he will read his Old Testament with care, he
will find that God violated most of his own commandments--all except
that "Thou shalt worship no other God before me," and, may be, the
commandment against work on the Sabbath day.  With these two
exceptions I am satisfied that God himself violated all the rest.
He told his chosen people to rob the Gentiles; that violated the
commandment against stealing.  He said himself that he had sent
out lying spirits; that certainly was a violation of another
commandment.  He ordered soldiers to kill men, women and babes;
that was a violation of another.  He also told them to divide the
maidens among the soldiers; that was a substantial violation of
another.  One of the commandments was that you should not covet
your neighbor's property.  In that commandment you will find that
a man's wife is put on an equality with his ox.  Yet his chosen
people were allowed not only to covet the property of the Gentiles,
but to take it.  If Dr. Fulton will read a little more, he will
find that all the good laws in the Decalogue had been in force in
Egypt a century before Moses was born.  He will find that like laws
and many better ones were in force in India and China, long before
Moses knew what a bulrush was.  If he will think a little while,
he will find that one of the Ten Commandments, the one on the
subject of graven images, was bad.  The result of that was that
Palestine never produced a painter, or a sculptor, and that no Jew
became famous in art until long after the destruction of Jerusalem.
A commandment that robs a people of painting and statuary is not
a good one.  The idea of the Bible being the basis of law is almost
too silly to be seriously refuted.  I admit that I did say that
Shakespeare was the greatest man who ever lived; and Dr. Fulton
says in regard to this statement, "What foolishness!"  He then
proceeds to insult his audience by telling them that while many of
them have copies of Shakespeare's works in their houses, they have
not read twenty pages of them.  This fact may account for their
attending his church and being satisfied with that sermon.  I do
not believe to-day that Shakespeare is more influential than the
Bible, but what influence Shakespeare has, is for good.  No man
can read it without having his intellectual wealth increased.  When
you read it, it is not necessary to throw away your reason.  Neither
will you be damned if you do not understand it.  It is a book that
appeals to everything in the human brain.  In that book can be
found the wisdom of all ages.  Long after the Bible has passed out
of existence, the name of Shakespeare will lead the intellectual
roster of the world.  Dr. Fulton says there is not one work in the
Bible that teaches that slavery or polygamy is right.  He also
states that I know it.  If language has meaning--if words have
sense, or the power to convey thought,--what did God mean when he
told the Israelites to buy of the heathen round about, and that
the heathen should be their bondmen and bondmaids forever?

What did God mean when he said, If a man strike his servant so he
dies, he should not be punished, because his servant was his money?
Passages like these can be quoted beyond the space that any paper
is willing to give.  Yet the Rev. Dr. Fulton denies that the Old
Testament upholds slavery.  I would like to ask him if the Old
Testament is in favor of religious toleration?  If God wrote the
Old Testament and afterward came upon the earth as Jesus Christ,
and taught a new religion, and the Jews crucified him, was this
not in accordance with his own law, and was he not, after all, the
victim of himself?

_Question_.  What about the other ministers?

_Answer_.  Well, I see in the _Herald_ that some ten have said that
they would reply to me.  I have selected the two, simply because
they came first.  I think they are about as poor as any; and you
know it is natural to attack those who are the easiest answered.
All these ministers are now acting as my agents, and are doing me
all the good they can by saying all the bad things about me they
can think of.  They imagine that their congregations have not grown,
and they talk to them as though they were living in the seventeenth
instead of the nineteenth century.  The truth is, the pews are
beyond the pulpit, and the modern sheep are now protecting the
shepherds.

_Question_.  Have you noticed a great change in public sentiment
in the last three or four years?

_Answer_.  Yes, I think there are ten times as many Infidels to-
day as there were ten years ago.  I am amazed at the great change
that has taken place in public opinion.  The churches are not
getting along well.  There are hundreds and hundreds who have not
had a new member in a year.  The young men are not satisfied with
the old ideas.  They find that the church, after all, is opposed
to learning; that it is the enemy of progress; that it says to
every young man, "Go slow.  Don't allow your knowledge to puff you
up.  Recollect that reason is a dangerous thing.  You had better
be a little ignorant here for the sake of being an angel hereafter,
than quite a smart young man and get damned at last."  The church
warns them against Humboldt and Darwin, and tells them how much
nobler it is to come from mud than from monkeys; that they were
made from mud.  Every college professor is afraid to tell what he
thinks, and every student detects the cowardice.  The result is
that the young men have lost confidence in the creeds of the day
and propose to do a little thinking for themselves.  They still
have a kind of tender pity for the old folks, and pretend to believe
some things they do not, rather than hurt grandmother's feelings.
In the presence of the preachers they talk about the weather or
other harmless subjects, for fear of bruising the spirit of their
pastor.  Every minister likes to consider himself as a brave shepherd
leading the lambs through the green pastures and defending them at
night from Infidel wolves.  All this he does for a certain share
of the wool.  Others regard the church as a kind of social
organization, as a good way to get into society.  They wish to
attend sociables, drink tea, and contribute for the conversion of
the heathen.  It is always so pleasant to think that there is
somebody worse than you are, whose reformation you can help pay
for.  I find, too, that the young women are getting tired of the
old doctrines, and that everywhere, all over this country, the
power of the pulpit wanes and weakens.  I find in my lectures that
the applause is just in proportion to the radicalism of the thought
expressed.  Our war was a great educator, when the whole people of
the North rose up grandly in favor of human liberty.  For many
years the great question of human rights was discussed from every
stump.  Every paper was filled with splendid sentiments.  An
application of those doctrines--doctrines born in war--will forever
do away with the bondage of superstition.  When man has been free
in body for a little time, he will become free in mind, and the
man who says, "I have a equal right with other men to work and reap
the reward of my labor," will say, "I have, also, an equal right
to think and reap the reward of my thought."

In old times there was a great difference between a clergyman and
a layman.  The clergyman was educated; the peasant was ignorant.
The tables have been turned.  The thought of the world is with the
laymen.  They are the intellectual pioneers, the mental leaders,
and the ministers are following on behind, predicting failure and
disaster, sighing for the good old times when their word ended
discussion.  There is another good thing, and that is the revision
of the Bible.  Hundreds of passages have been found to be
interpolations, and future revisers will find hundreds more.  The
foundation crumbles.  That book, called the basis of all law and
civilization, has to be civilized itself.  We have outgrown it.
Our laws are better; our institutions grander; our objects and aims
nobler and higher.

_Question_.  Do many people write to you upon this subject; and
what spirit do they manifest?

_Answer_.  Yes, I get a great many anonymous letters--some letters
in which God is asked to strike me dead, others of an exceedingly
insulting character, others almost idiotic, others exceedingly
malicious, and others insane, others written in an exceedingly good
spirit, winding up with the information that I must certainly be
damned.  Others express wonder that God allowed me to live at all,
and that, having made the mistake, he does not instantly correct
it by killing me.  Others prophesy that I will yet be a minister
of the gospel; but, as there has never been any softening of the
brain in our family, I imagine that the prophecy will never by
fulfilled.  Lately, on opening a letter and seeing that it is upon
this subject, and without a signature, I throw it aside without
reading.  I have so often found them to be so grossly ignorant,
insulting and malicious, that as a rule I read them no more.

_Question_.  Of the hundreds of people who call upon you nearly
every day to ask your help, do any of them ever discriminate against
you on account of your Infidelity?

_Answer_.  No one who has asked a favor of me objects to my religion,
or, rather, to my lack of it.  A great many people do come to me
for assistance of one kind or another.  But I have never yet asked
a man or woman whether they were religious or not, to what church
they belonged, or any questions upon the subject.  I think I have
done favors for persons of most denominations.  It never occurs to
me whether they are Christians or Infidels.  I do not care.  Of
course, I do not expect that Christians will treat me the same as
though I belonged to their church.  I have never expected it.  In
some instances I have been disappointed.  I have some excellent
friends who disagree with me entirely upon the subject of religion.
My real opinion is that secretly they like me because I am not a
Christian, and those who do not like me envy the liberty I enjoy.

--New York correspondent, _Chicago Times_, May 29, 1881.
 

GUITEAU AND HIS CRIME.*

[* Our "Royal Bob" was found by _The Gazette_, in the gloaming of
a delicious evening, during the past week, within the open portals
of his friendly residence, dedicated by the gracious presence within
to a simple and cordial hospitality, to the charms of friendship and
the freedom of an abounding comradeship.  With intellectual and
untrammeled life, a generous, wise and genial host, whoever enters
finds a welcome, seasoned with kindly wit and Attic humor, a poetic
insight and a delicious frankness which renders an evening there a
veritable symposium.  The wayfarer who passes is charmed, and he who
comes frequently, goes always away with delighted memories.

What matters it that we differ? such as he and his make our common
life the sweeter.  An hour or two spent in the attractive parlors
of the Ingersoll homestead, amid that rare group, lends a newer
meaning to the idea of home and a more secure beauty to the fact
of family life.  During the past exciting three weeks Colonel
Ingersoll has been a busy man.  He holds no office.  No position
could lend him an additional crown and even recognition is no longer
necessary.  But it has been well that amid the first fierce fury
of anger and excitement, and the subsequent more bitter if not as
noble outpouring of faction's suspicions and innuendoes, that so
manly a man, so sagacious a counsellor, has been enabled to hold
so positive a balance.  Cabinet officers, legal functionaries,
detectives, citizens--all have felt the wise, humane instincts,
and the capacious brain of this marked man affecting and influencing
for this fair equipoise and calmer judgment.

Conversing freely on the evening of this visit, Colonel Ingersoll,
in the abundance of his pleasure at the White House news, submitted
to be interviewed, and with the following result.]

_Question_.  By-the-way, Colonel, you knew Guiteau slightly, we
believe.  Are you aware that it has been attempted to show that
some money loaned or given him by yourself was really what he
purchased the pistol with?

_Answer_.  I knew Guiteau slightly; I saw him for the first time
a few days after the inauguration.  He wanted a consulate, and
asked me to give him a letter to Secretary Blaine.  I refused, on
the ground that I didn't know him.  Afterwards he wanted me to lend
him twenty-five dollars, and I declined.  I never loaned him a
dollar in the world.  If I had, I should not feel that I was guilty
of trying to kill the President.  On the principle that one would
hold the man guilty who had innocently loaned the money with which
he bought the pistol, you might convict the tailor who made his
clothes.  If he had had no clothes he would not have gone to the
depot naked, and the crime would not have been committed.  It is
hard enough for the man who did lend him the money to lose that,
without losing his reputation besides.  Nothing can exceed the
utter absurdity of what has been said upon this subject.

_Question_.  How did Guiteau impress you and what have you remembered,
Colonel, of his efforts to reply to your lectures?

_Answer_.  I do not know that Guiteau impressed me in any way.  He
appeared like most other folks in search of a place or employment.
I suppose he was in need.  He talked about the same as other people,
and claimed that I ought to help him because he was from Chicago.
The second time he came to see me he said that he hoped I had no
prejudice against him on account of what he had said about me.  I
told him that I never knew he had said anything against me.  I
suppose now that he referred to what he had said in his lectures.
He went about the country replying to me.  I have seen one or two
of his lectures.  He used about the same arguments that Mr. Black
uses in his reply to my article in the _North American Review_,
and denounced me in about the same terms.  He is undoubtedly a man
who firmly believes in the Old Testament, and has no doubt concerning
the New.  I understand that he puts in most of his time now reading
the Bible and rebuking people who use profane language in his
presence.

_Question_.  You most certainly do not see any foundation for the
accusations of preachers like Sunderland, Newman and Power, _et
al_, that the teaching of a secular liberalism has had anything to
do with the shaping of Guiteau's character or the actions of his
vagabond life or the inciting to his murderous deeds?

_Answer_.  I do not think that the sermon of Mr. Power was in good
taste.  It is utterly foolish to charge the "Stalwarts" with
committing or inciting the crime against the life of the President.
Ministers, though, as a rule, know but little of public affairs,
and they always account for the actions of people they do not like
or agree with, by attributing to them the lowest and basest motives.
This is the fault of the pulpit--always has been, and probably
always will be.  The Rev. Dr. Newman of New York, tells us that
the crime of Guiteau shows three things:  First, that ignorant men
should not be allowed to vote; second, that foreigners should not
be allowed to vote; and third, that there should not be so much
religious liberty.

It turns out, first, the Guiteau is not an ignorant man; second,
that he is not a foreigner; and third, that he is a Christian.
Now, because an intelligent American Christian tries to murder the
President, this person says we ought to do something with ignorant
foreigners and Infidels.  This is about the average pulpit logic.
Of course, all the ministers hate to admit the Guiteau was a
Christian; that he belonged to the Young Men's Christian Association,
or at least was generally found in their rooms; that he was a
follower of Moody and Sankey, and probably instrumental in the
salvation of a great many souls.  I do not blame them for wishing
to get rid of this record.  What I blame them for is that they are
impudent enough to charge the crime of Guiteau upon Infidelity.
Infidels and Atheists have often killed tyrants.  They have often
committed crimes to increase the liberty of mankind; but the history
of the world will not show an instance where an Infidel or an
Atheist has assassinated any man in the interest of human slavery.
Of course, I am exceedingly glad that Guiteau is not an Infidel.
I am glad that he believes the Bible, glad that he has delivered
lectures against what he calls Infidelity, and glad that he has
been working for years with the missionaries and evangelists of
the United States.  He is a man of small brain, badly balanced.
He believes the Bible to be the word of God.  He believes in the
reality of heaven and hell.  He believes in the miraculous.  He is
surrounded by the supernatural, and when a man throws away his
reason, of course no one can tell what he will do.  He is liable
to become a devotee or an assassin, a saint or a murderer; he may
die in a monastery or in a penitentiary.

_Question_.  According to your view, then, the species of fanaticism
taught in sectarian Christianity, by which Guiteau was led to assert
that Garfield dead would be better off then living--being in Paradise
--is more responsible than office seeking or political factionalism
for his deed?

_Answer_.  Guiteau seemed to think that the killing of the President
would only open the gates of Paradise to him, and that, after all,
under such circumstances, murder was hardly a crime.  This same
kind of reasoning is resorted to in the pulpit to account for death.
If Guiteau had succeeded in killing the President, hundreds of
ministers would have said, "After all, it may be that the President
has lost nothing; it may be that our loss is his eternal gain; and
although it seems cruel that Providence should allow a man like
him to be murdered, still, it may have been the very kindest thing
that could have been done for him."  Guiteau reasoned in this way,
and probably convinced himself, judging from his own life, that
this world was, after all, of very little worth.  We are apt to
measure others by ourselves.  Of course, I do not think Christianity
is responsible for this crime.  Superstition may have been, in part
--probably was.  But no man believes in Christianity because he
thinks it sanctions murder.  At the same time, an absolute belief
in the Bible sometimes produces the worst form of murder.  Take
that of Mr. Freeman, of Poeasset, who stabbed his little daughter
to the heart in accordance with what he believed to be the command
of God.  This poor man imitated Abraham; and, for that matter,
Jehovah himself.  There have been in the history of Christianity
thousands and thousands of such instances, and there will probably
be many thousands more that have been and will be produced by
throwing away our own reason and taking the word of some one else
--often a word that we do not understand.

_Question_.  What is your opinion as to the effect of praying for
the recovery of the President, and have you any confidence that
prayers are answered?

_Answer_.  My opinion as to the value of prayer is well known.  I
take it that every one who prays for the President shows at least
his sympathy and good will.  Personally, I have no objection to
anybody's praying.  Those who think their prayers are answered
should pray.  For all who honestly believe this, and who honestly
implore their Deity to watch over, protect, and save the life of
the President, I have only the kindliest feelings.

It may be that a few will pray to be seen of men; but I suppose
that most people on a subject like this are honest.  Personally,
I have not the slightest idea of the existence of the supernatural.
Prayer may affect the person who prays.  It may put him in such a
frame of mind that he can better bear disappointment than if he
had not prayed; but I cannot believe that there is any being who
hears and answers prayer.

When we remember the earthquakes that have devoured, the pestilences
that have covered the earth with corpses, and all the crimes and
agonies that have been inflicted upon the good and weak by the bad
and strong, it does not seem possible that anything can be accomplished
by prayer.  I do not wish to hurt the feelings of anyone, but I
imagine that I have a right to my own opinion.  If the President
gets well it will be because the bullet did not strike an absolutely
vital part; it will be because he has been well cared for; because
he has had about him intelligent and skillful physicians, men who
understood their profession.  No doubt he has received great support
from the universal expression of sympathy and kindness.  The
knowledge that fifty millions of people are his friends has given
him nerve and hope.  Some of the ministers, I see, think that God
was actually present and deflected the ball.  Another minister
tells us that the President would have been assassinated in a
church, but that God determined not to allow so frightful a crime
to be committed in so sacred an edifice.  All this sounds to me
like perfect absurdity--simple noise.  Yet, I presume that those
who talk in this way are good people and believe what they say.
Of course, they can give no reason why God did not deflect the ball
when Lincoln was assassinated.  The truth is, the pulpit first
endeavors to find out the facts, and then to make a theory to fit
them.  Whoever believes in a special providence must, of necessity,
by illogical and absurd; because it is impossible to make any
theological theory that some facts will not contradict.

_Question_.  Won't you give us, then, Colonel, your analysis of
this act, and the motives leading to it?

_Answer_.  I think Guiteau wanted an office and was refused.  He
became importunate.  He was, substantially, put out of the White
House.  He became malicious.  He made up his mind to be revenged.
This, in my judgment, is the diagnosis of his case.  Since he has
been in jail he has never said one word about having been put out
of the White House; he is lawyer enough to know he must not furnish
any ground for malice.  He is a miserable, malicious and worthless
wretch, infinitely egotistical, imagines that he did a great deal
toward the election of Garfield, and upon being refused the house
a serpent of malice coiled in his heart, and he determined to be
revenged.  That is all!

_Question_.  Do you, in any way, see any reason or foundation for
the severe and bitter criticisms made against the Stalwart leaders
in connection with this crime?  As you are well known to be a friend
of the administration, while not unfriendly to Mr. Conkling and
those acting with him, would you mind giving the public your opinion
on this point?

_Answer_.  Of course, I do not hold Arthur, Conkling and Platt
responsible for Guiteau's action.  In the first excitement a thousand
unreasonable things were said; and when passion has possession of
the brain, suspicion is a welcome visitor.

I do not think that any friend of the administration really believes
Conkling, Platt and Arthur responsible in the slightest degree.
Conkling wished to prevent the appointment of Robertson.  The
President stood by his friend.  One thing brought on another, Mr.
Conkling petulantly resigned, and made the mistake of his life.
There was a good deal of feeling, but, of course, no one dreamed
that the wretch, Guiteau, was lying in wait for the President's
life.  In the first place, Guiteau was on the President's side,
and was bitterly opposed to Conkling.  Guiteau did what he did from
malice and personal spite.  I think the sermon preached last Sunday
in the Campbellite Church was unwise, ill advised, and calculated
to make enemies instead of friends.  Mr. Conkling has been beaten.
He has paid for the mistake he made.  If he can stand it, I can;
and why should there be any malice on the subject?  Exceedingly
good men have made mistakes, and afterward corrected them.

_Question_.  Is it not true, Colonel Ingersoll, that the lesson of
this deed is to point the real and overwhelming need of re-knitting
and harmonizing the factions?

_Answer_.  There is hardly enough faction left for "knitting."
The party is in harmony now.  All that is necessary is to stop
talking.  The people of this country care very little as to who
holds any particular office.  They wish to have the Government
administered in accordance with certain great principles, and they
leave the fields, the shops, and the stores once in four years,
for the purpose of attending to that business.  In the meantime,
politicians quarrel about offices.  The people go on.  They plow
fields, they build homes, they open mines, they enrich the world,
they cover our country with prosperity, and enjoy the aforesaid
quarrels.  But when the time comes, these gentlemen are forgotten.

Principles take the place of politicians, and the people settle
these questions for themselves.

--_Sunday Gazette_, Washington, D. C., July 24, 1881.
 

DISTRICT SUFFRAGE.

_Question_.  You have heretofore incidentally expressed yourself
on the matter of local suffrage in the District of Columbia.  Have
you any objections to giving your present views of the question?

_Answer_.  I am still in favor of suffrage in the District.  The
real trouble is, that before any substantial relief can be reached,
there must be a change in the Constitution of the United States.
The mere right to elect aldermen and mayors and policemen is of no
great importance.  It is a mistake to take all political power from
the citizens of the District.  Americans want to help rule the
country.  The District ought to have at least one Representative
in Congress, and should elect one presidential elector.  The people
here should have a voice.  They should feel that they are a part
of this country.  They should have the right to sue in all Federal
courts, precisely as though they were citizens of a State.  This
city ought to have half a million of inhabitants.  Thousands would
come here every year from every part of the Union, were it not for
the fact that they do not wish to become political nothings.  They
think that citizenship is worth something, and they preserve it by
staying away from Washington.  This city is a "flag of truce" where
wounded and dead politicians congregate; the Mecca of failures,
the perdition of claimants, the purgatory of seekers after place,
and the heaven only of those who neither want nor do anything.
Nothing is manufactured, no solid business is done in this city,
and there never will be until energetic, thrifty people wish to
make it their home, and they will not wish that until the people
of the District have something like the rights and political
prospects of other citizens.  It is hard to see why the right to
representation should be taken from citizens living in the Capital
of the Nation.  The believers in free government should believe in
a free capital.

_Question_.  Are there any valid reasons why the constitutional
limitations to the elective franchise in the District of Columbia
should not be removed by an amendment to that instrument?

_Answer_.  I cannot imagine one.  If our Government is founded upon
a correct principle there can be no objection urged against suffrage
in the District that cannot, with equal force, be urged against
every part of the country.  If freedom is dangerous here, it is
safe nowhere.  If a man cannot be trusted in the District, he is
dangerous in the State.  We do not trust the place where the man
happens to be; we trust the man.  The people of this District cannot
remain in their present condition without becoming dishonored.
The idea of allowing themselves to be governed by commissioners,
in whose selection they have no part, is monstrous.  The people
here beg, implore, request, ask, pray, beseech, intercede, crave,
urge, entreat, supplicate, memorialize and most humbly petition,
but they neither vote nor demand.  They are not allowed to enter
the Temple of Liberty; they stay in the lobby or sit on the steps.

_Question_.  They say Paris is France, because her electors or
citizens control that municipality.  Do you foresee any danger of
centralization in the full enfranchisement of the citizens of
Washington?

_Answer_.  There was a time when the intelligence of France was in
Paris.  The country was besotted, ignorant, Catholic; Paris was
alive, educated, Infidel, full of new theories, of passion and
heroism.  For two hundred years Paris was an athlete chained to a
corpse.  The corpse was the rest of France.  It is different now,
and the whole country is at last filling with light.  Besides,
Paris has two millions of people.  It is filled with factories.
It is not only the intellectual center, but the center of money
and business as well.  Let the _Corps Legislatif_ meet anywhere,
and Paris will continue to be in a certain splendid sense--France.
Nothing like that can ever happen here unless you expect Washington
to outstrip New York, Philadelphia and Chicago.  If allowing the
people of the District of Columbia to vote was the only danger to
the Republic, I should be politically the happiest of men.  I think
it somewhat dangerous to deprive even one American citizen of the
right to govern himself.

_Question_.  Would you have Government clerks and officials appointed
to office here given the franchise in the District? and should
this, if given, include the women clerks?

_Answer_.  Citizenship should be determined here as in the States.
Clerks should not be allowed to vote unless their intention is to
make the District their home.  When I make a government I shall
give one vote to each family.  The unmarried should not be represented
except by parents.  Let the family be the unit of representation.
Give each hearthstone a vote.

_Question_.  How do you regard the opposition of the local clergy
and of the Bourbon Democracy to enfranchising the citizens of the
District?

_Answer_.  I did not know that the clergy did oppose it.  If, as
you say, they do oppose it because they fear it will extend the
liquor traffic, I think their reason exceedingly stupid.  You cannot
make men temperate by shutting up a few of the saloons and leaving
others wide open.  Intemperance must be met with other weapons.
The church ought not to appeal to force.  What would the clergy of
Washington think should the miracle of Cana be repeated in their
day?  Had they been in that country, with their present ideas, what
would they have said?  After all there is a great deal of philosophy
in the following:  "Better have the whole world voluntarily drunk
then sober on compulsion."  Of course the Bourbons object.  Objecting
is the business of a Bourbon.  He always objects.  If he does not
understand the question he objects because he does not, and if he
does understand he objects because he does.  With him the reason
for objecting is the fact that he does.

_Question_.  What effect, if any, would the complete franchise to
our citizens have upon real estate and business in Washington?

_Answer_.  If the people here had representation according to
numbers--if the avenues to political preferment were open--if men
here could take part in the real government of the country, if they
could bring with them all their rights, this would be a great and
splendid Capital.  We ought to have here a University, the best in
the world, a library second to none, and here should be gathered
the treasures of American art.  The Federal Government has been
infinitely economical in the direction of information.  I hope the
time will come when our Government will give as much to educate
two men as to kill one.

--_The Capital_, Washington, D. C., December 18, 1881.
 

FUNERAL OF JOHN G. MILLS AND IMMORTALITY.*

[* Robert G. Ingersoll rarely takes the trouble to answer critics.
His recent address over the dead body of his friend John G. Mills
has called forth a storm of denunciation from nearly every pulpit
in the country.  The writer called at the Colonel's office in New York
Avenue yesterday and asked him to reply to some of the points made
against him.  Reluctantly he assented.]

_Question_.  Have you seen the recent clerical strictures upon your
doctrines?

_Answer_.  There are always people kind enough to send me anything
they have the slightest reason to think I do not care to read.
They seem to be animated by a missionary spirit, and apparently
want to be in a position when they see me in hell to exclaim:  "You
can't blame me.  I sent you all the impudent articles I saw, and
if you died unconverted it was no fault of mine."

_Question_.  Did you notice that a Washington clergyman said that
the very fact that you were allowed to speak at the funeral was in
itself a sacrilege, and that you ought to have been stopped?

_Answer_.  Yes, I saw some such story.  Of course, the clergy regard
marriages and funerals as the perquisites of the pulpit, and they
resent any interference on the part of the pews.  They look at
these matters from a business point of view.  They made the same
cry against civil marriages.  They denied that marriage was a
contract, and insisted that it was a sacrament, and that it was
hardly binding unless a priest had blessed it.  They used to bury
in consecrated ground, and had marks upon the graves, so that
Gabriel might know the ones to waken.  The clergy wish to make
themselves essential.  They must christen the babe--this gives them
possession of the cradle.  They must perform the ceremony of marriage
--this gives them possession of the family.  They must pronounce
the funeral discourse--this gives them possession of the dead.
Formerly they denied baptism to the children of the unbeliever,
marriage to him who denied the dogmas of the church, and burial to
honest men.  The church wishes to control the world, and wishes to
sacrifice this world for the next.  Of course I am in favor of the
utmost liberty upon all these questions.  When a Presbyterian dies,
let a follower of John Calvin console the living by setting forth
the "Five Points."  When a Catholic becomes clay, let a priest
perform such ceremonies as his creed demands, and let him picture
the delights of purgatory for the gratification of the living.
And when one dies who does not believe in any religion, having
expressed a wish that somebody say a few words above his remains,
I see no reason why such a proceeding should be stopped, and, for
my part, I see no sacrilege in it.  Why should the reputations of
the dead, and the feelings of those who live, be placed at the
mercy of the ministers?  A man dies not having been a Christian,
and who, according to the Christian doctrine, is doomed to eternal
fire.  How would an honest Christian minister console the widow
and the fatherless children?  How would he dare to tell what he
claims to be truth in the presence of the living?  The truth is,
the Christian minister in the presence of death abandons his
Christianity.  He dare not say above the coffin, "the soul that
once inhabited this body is now in hell."  He would be denounced
as a brutal savage.  Now and then a minister at a funeral has been
brave enough and unmannerly enough to express his doctrine in all
its hideousness of hate.  I was told that in Chicago, many years
ago, a young man, member of a volunteer fire company, was killed
by the falling of a wall, and at the very moment the wall struck
him he was uttering a curse.  He was a brave and splendid man.  An
orthodox minister said above his coffin, in the presence of his
mother and mourning friends, that he saw no hope for the soul of
that young man.  The mother, who was also orthodox, refused to have
her boy buried with such a sermon--stopped the funeral, took the
corpse home, engaged a Universalist preacher, and, on the next day
having heard this man say that there was no place in the wide
universe of God without hope, and that her son would finally stand
among the redeemed, this mother laid her son away, put flowers upon
his grave, and was satisfied.

_Question_.  What have you to say to the charge that you are
preaching the doctrine of despair and hopelessness, when they have
the comforting assurances of the Christian religion to offer?

_Answer_.  All I have to say is this:  If the Christian religion
is true, as commonly preached--and when I speak of Christianity,
I speak of the orthodox Christianity of the day--if that be true,
those whom I have loved the best are now in torment.  Those to whom
I am most deeply indebted are now suffering the vengeance of God.
If this religion be true, the future is of no value to me.  I care
nothing about heaven, unless the ones I love and have loved are
there.  I know nothing about the angels.  I might not like them,
and they might not like me.  I would rather meet there the ones
who have loved me here--the ones who would have died for me, and
for whom I would have died; and if we are to be eternally divided
--not because we differed in our views of justice, not because we
differed about friendship or love or candor, or the nobility of
human action, but because we differed in belief about the atonement
or baptism or the inspiration of the Scriptures--and if some of us
are to be in heaven, and some in hell, then, for my part, I prefer
eternal sleep.  To me the doctrine of annihilation is infinitely
more consoling, than the probable separation preached by the orthodox
clergy of our time.  Of course, even if there be a God, I like
persons that I know, better than I can like him--we have more in
common--I know more about them; and how is it possible for me to
love the infinite and unknown better than the ones I know?  Why
not have the courage to say that if there be a God, all I know
about him I know by knowing myself and my friends--by knowing
others?  And, after all, is not a noble man, is not a pure woman,
the finest revelation we have of God--if there be one?  Of what
use is it to be false to ourselves?  What moral quality is there
in theological pretence?  Why should a man say that he loves God
better than he does his wife or his children or his brother or his
sister or his warm, true friend?  Several ministers have objected
to what I said about my friend Mr. Mills, on the ground that it
was not calculated to console the living.  Mr. Mills was not a
Christian.  He denied the inspiration of the Scriptures.  He believed
that restitution was the best repentance, and that, after all, sin
is a mistake.  He was not a believer in total depravity, or in the
atonement.  He denied these things.  He was an unbeliever.  Now,
let me ask, what consolation could a Christian minister have given
to his family?  He could have said to the widow and the orphans,
to the brother and sister:  "Your husband, your father, your brother,
is now in hell; dry your tears; weep not for him, but try and save
yourselves.  He has been damned as a warning to you, care no more
for him, why should you weep over the grave of a man whom God thinks
fit only to be eternally tormented?  Why should you love the memory
of one whom God hates?"  The minister could have said:  "He had an
opportunity--he did not take it.  The life-boat was lowered--he
would not get in--he has been drowned, and the waves of God's wrath
will sweep over him forever."  This is the consolation of Christianity
and the only honest consolation that Christianity can have for the
widow and orphans of an unbeliever.  Suppose, however, that the
Christian minister has too tender a heart to tell what he believes
to be the truth--then he can say to the sorrowing friends:  "Perhaps
the man repented before he died; perhaps he is not in hell, perhaps
you may meet him in heaven;" and this "perhaps" is a consolation
not growing out of Christianity, but out of the politeness of the
preacher--out of paganism.

_Question_.  Do you not think that the Bible has consolation for
those who have lost their friends?

_Answer_.  There is about the Old Testament this strange fact--I
find in it no burial service.  There is in it, I believe, from the
first mistake in Genesis to the last curse in Malachi, not one word
said over the dead as to their place and state.  When Abraham died,
nobody said:  "He is still alive--he is in another world."  When
the prophets passed away, not one word was said as to the heaven
to which they had gone.  In the Old Testament, Saul inquired of
the witch, and Samuel rose.  Samuel did not pretend that he had
been living, or that he was alive, but asked:  "Why hast thou
disquieted me?"  He did not pretend to have come from another world.
And when David speaks of his son, saying that he could not come
back to him, but that he, David, could go to his son, that is but
saying that he, too, must die.  There is not in the Old Testament
one hope of immortality.  It is expressly asserted that there is
no difference between the man and beast--that as the one dieth so
dieth the other.  There is one little passage in Job which commentators
have endeavored to twist into a hope of immortality.  Here is a
book of hundreds and hundreds of pages, and hundreds and hundreds
of chapters--a revelation from God--and in it one little passage,
which, by a mistranslation, is tortured into saying something about
another life.  And this is the Old Testament.  I have sometimes
thought that the Jews, when slaves in Egypt, were mostly occupied
in building tombs for mummies, and that they became so utterly
disgusted with that kind of work, that the moment they founded a
nation for themselves they went out of the tomb business.  The
Egyptians were believers in immortality, and spent almost their
entire substance upon the dead.  The living were impoverished to
enrich the dead.  The grave absorbed the wealth of Egypt.  The
industry of a nation was buried.  Certainly the Old Testament has
nothing clearly in favor of immortality.  In the New Testament we
are told about the "kingdom of heaven,"--that it is at hand--and
about who shall be worthy, but it is hard to tell what is meant by
the kingdom of heaven.  The kingdom of heaven was apparently to be
in this world, and it was about to commence.  The Devil was to be
chained for a thousand years, the wicked were to be burned up, and
Christ and his followers were to enjoy the earth.  This certainly
was the doctrine of Paul when he says:  "Behold, I show you a
mystery; We shall not all _sleep_, but we shall all be _changed_.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for
the trumpet shall sound, and the _dead_ shall be _raised_ incorruptible,
and _we_ shall be _changed_.  For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."  According
to this doctrine, those who were alive were to be changed, and
those who had died were to be raised from the dead.  Paul certainly
did not refer to any other world beyond this.  All these things
were to happen here.  The New Testament is made up of the fragments
of many religions.  It is utterly inconsistent with itself; and
there is not a particle of evidence of the resurrection and ascension
of Christ--neither in the nature of things could there be.  It is
a thousand times more probable that people were mistaken than that
such things occurred.  If Christ really rose from the dead, he
should have shown himself, not simply to his disciples, but to the
very men who crucified him--to Herod, to the high priest, to Pilate.
He should have made a triumphal entry into Jerusalem after his
resurrection, instead of before.  He should have shown himself to
the Sadducees,--to those who denied the existence of spirit.  Take
from the New Testament its doctrine of eternal pain--the idea that
we can please God by acts of self-denial that can do no good to
others--take away all its miracles, and I have no objection to all
the good things in it--no objection to the hope of a future life,
if such a hope is expressed--not the slightest.  And I would not
for the world say anything to take from any mind a hope in which
dwells the least comfort, but a doctrine that dooms a large majority
of mankind to eternal flames ought not to be called a consolation.
What I say is, that the writers of the New Testament knew no more
about the future state than I do, and no less.  The horizon of life
has never been pierced.  The veil between time and what is called
eternity, has never been raised, so far as I know; and I say of
the dead what all others must say if they say only what they know.
There is no particular consolation in a guess.  Not knowing what
the future has in store for the human race, it is far better to
prophesy good than evil.  It is better to hope that the night has
a dawn, that the sky has a star, than to build a heaven for the
few, and a hell for the many.  It is better to leave your dead in
doubt than in fire--better that they should sleep in shadow than
in the lurid flames of perdition.  And so I say, and always have
said, let us hope for the best.  The minister asks:  "What right
have you to hope?  It is sacrilegious in you!"  But, whether the
clergy like it or not, I shall always express my real opinion, and
shall always be glad to say to those who mourn:  "There is in death,
as I believe, nothing worse than sleep.  Hope for as much better
as you can.  Under the seven-hued arch let the dead rest."  Throw
away the Bible, and you throw away the fear of hell, but the hope
of another life remains, because the hope does not depend upon a
book--it depends upon the heart--upon human affection.  The fear,
so far as this generation is concerned, is born of the book, and
that part of the book was born of savagery.  Whatever of hope is
in the book is born, as I said before, of human affection, and the
higher our civilization the greater the affection.  I had rather
rest my hope of something beyond the grave upon the human heart,
than upon what they call the Scriptures, because there I find
mingled with the hope of something good the threat of infinite
evil.  Among the thistles, thorns and briers of the Bible is one
pale and sickly flower of hope.  Among all its wild beasts and
fowls, only one bird flies heavenward.  I prefer the hope without
the thorns, without the briers, thistles, hyenas, and serpents.

_Question_.  Do you not know that it is claimed that immortality
was brought to light in the New Testament, that that, in fact, was
the principal mission of Christ?

_Answer_.  I know that Christians claim that the doctrine of
immortality was first taught in the New Testament.  They also claim
that the highest morality was found there.  Both these claims are
utterly without foundation.  Thousands of years before Christ was
born--thousands of years before Moses saw the light--the doctrine
of immortality was preached by the priests of Osiris and Isis.
Funeral discourses were pronounced over the dead, ages before
Abraham existed.  When a man died in Egypt, before he was taken
across the sacred lake, he had a trial.  Witnesses appeared, and
if he had done anything wrong, for which he had not done restitution,
he was not taken across the lake.  The living friends, in disgrace,
carried the body back, and it was buried outside of what might be
called consecrated ground, while the ghost was supposed to wander
for a hundred years.  Often the children of the dead would endeavor
to redeem the poor ghost by acts of love and kindness.  When he
came to the spirit world there was the god Anubis, who weighed his
heart in the scales of eternal justice, and if the good deed
preponderated he entered the gates of Paradise; if the evil, he
had to go back to the world, and be born in the bodies of animals
for the purpose of final purification.  At last, the good deeds
would outweigh the evil, and, according to the religion of Egypt,
the latch-string of heaven would never be drawn in until the last
wanderer got home.  Immortality was also taught in India, and, in
fact, in all the countries of antiquity.  Wherever men have loved,
wherever they have dreamed, wherever hope has spread its wings,
the idea of immortality has existed.  But nothing could be worse
than the immortality promised in the New Testament--admitting that
it is so promised--eternal joy side by side with eternal pain.
Think of living forever, knowing that countless millions are
suffering eternal pain!  How much better it would be for God to
commit suicide and let all life and motion cease!  Christianity
has no consolation except for the Christian, and if a Christian
minister endeavors to console the widow of an unbeliever he must
resort, not to his religion, but to his sympathy--to the natural
promptings of the heart.  He is compelled to say:  "After all, may
be God is not so bad as we think," or, "May be your husband was
better than he appeared; perhaps somehow, in some way, the dear
man has squeezed in; he was a good husband, he was a kind father,
and even if he is in hell, may be he is in the temperate zone,
where they have occasional showers, and where, if the days are hot,
the nights are reasonably cool."  All I ask of Christian ministers
is to tell what they believe to be the truth--not to borrow ideas
from the pagans--not to preach the mercy born of unregenerate
sympathy.  Let them tell their real doctrines.  If they will do
that, they will not have much influence.  If orthodox Christianity
is true, a large majority of the man who have made this world fit
to live in are now in perdition.  A majority of the Revolutionary
soldiers have been damned.  A majority of the man who fought for
the integrity of this Union--a majority who were starved at Libby
and Andersonville are now in hell.

_Question_.  Do you deny the immortality of the soul?

_Answer_.  I have never denied the immortality of the soul.  I have
simply been honest.  I have said:  "I do not know."  Long ago, in
my lecture on "The Ghosts," I used the following language:  "The
idea of immortality, that like a sea has ebbed and flowed in the
human heart, with its countless waves of hope and fear beating
against the shores and rocks of time and fate, was not born of any
book, nor of any creed, nor of any religion.  It was born of human
affection, and it will continue to ebb and flow beneath the mists
and clouds of doubt and darkness as long as love kisses the lips
of death.  It is the rainbow Hope, shining upon the tears of grief."

--_The Post_, Washington, D. C., April 30, 1883.
 

STAR ROUTE AND POLITICS.*

[* Col. Ingersoll entertains very pronounced ideas concerning
President Arthur, Attorney-General Brewster and divers other people,
which will be found presented herewith in characteristically piquant
style.  With his family, the eloquent advocate has a cottage here,
and finds brain and body rest and refreshment in the tumbling waves.
This noon, in the height of a tremendous thunder storm, I bumped
against his burly figure in the roaring crest, and, after the first
shock had passed, determined to utilize the providential coincidence.
The water was warm, our clothes were in the bathing houses, and
comfort was more certain where we were than anywhere else.  The
Colonel is an expert swimmer and as a floater he cannot be beaten.
He was floating when we bumped.  Spouting a pint of salt water from
his mouth, he nearly choked with laughter as in answer to my question
he said:  ]

No, I do not believe there will be any more Star Route trials.
There is so much talk about the last one, there will not be time
for another.

_Question_.  Did you anticipate a verdict?

_Answer_.  I did anticipate a verdict, and one of acquittal.  I
knew that the defendants were entitled to such a verdict.  I knew
that the Government had signally failed to prove a case.  There
was nothing but suspicion, from which malice was inferred.  The
direct proof was utterly unworthy of belief.  The direct witness
was caught with letters he had forged.  This one fact was enough
to cover the prosecution with confusion.  The fact that Rerdell
sat with the other defendants and reported to the Government from
day to day satisfied the jury as to the value of his testimony,
and the animus of the Department of Justice.  Besides, Rerdell had
offered to challenge such jurors as the Government might select.
He handed counsel for defendants a list of four names that he wanted
challenged.  At that time it was supposed that each defendant would
be allowed to challenge four jurors.  Afterward the Court decided
that all the defendants must be considered as one party and had
the right to challenge four and no more.  Of the four names on
Rerdell's list the Government challenged three and Rerdell tried
to challenge the other.  This was what is called a coincidence.
Another thing had great influence with the jury--the evidence of
the defendants was upon all material points so candid and so natural,
so devoid of all coloring, that the jury could not help believing.
If the people knew the evidence they would agree with the jury.
When we remember that there were over ten thousand star routes, it
is not to be wondered at that some mistakes were made--that in some
instances too much was paid and in others too little.

_Question_.  What has been the attitude of President Arthur?

_Answer_.  We asked nothing from the President.  We wanted no help
from him.  We expected that he would take no part--that he would
simply allow the matter to be settled by the court in the usual
way.  I think that he made one very serious mistake.  He removed
officers on false charges without giving them a hearing.  He deposed
Marshal Henry because somebody said that he was the friend of the
defendants.  Henry was a good officer and an honest man.  The
President removed Ainger for the same reason.  This was a mistake.
Ainger should have been heard.  There is always time to do justice.
No day is too short for justice, and eternity is not long enough
to commit a wrong.  It was thought that the community could be
terrorized:--

_First_.  The President dismissed Henry and Ainger.

_Second_.  The Attorney-General wrote a letter denouncing the
defendants as thieves and robbers.

_Third_.  Other letters from Bliss and MacVeagh were published.

_Fourth_.  Dixon, the foreman of the first jury, was indicted.

_Fifth_.  Members of the first jury voting "guilty" were in various
ways rewarded.

_Sixth_.  Bargains were made with Boone and Rerdell.  The cases
against Boone were to be dismissed and Rerdell was promised immunity.
Under these circumstances the second trial commenced.  But of all
the people in this country the citizens of Washington care least
for Presidents and members of the Cabinets.  They know what these
officers are made of.  They know that they are simply folks--that
they do not hold office forever--that the Jupiters of to-day are
often the pygmies of to-morrow.  They have seen too many people
come in with trumpets and flags and go out with hisses and rags to
be overawed by the deities of a day.  They have seen Lincoln and
they are not to be frightened by his successors.  Arthur took part
to the extent of turning out men suspected of being friendly to
the defence.  Arthur was in a difficult place.  He was understood
to be the friend of Dorsey and, of course, had to do something.
Nothing is more dangerous than a friend in power.  He is obliged
to show that he is impartial, and it always takes a good deal of
injustice to establish a reputation for fairness.

_Question_.  Was there any ground to expect aid or any different
action on Arthur's part?

_Answer_.  All we expected was that Arthur would do as the soldier
wanted the Lord to do at New Orleans--"Just take neither side."

_Question_.  Why did not Brewster speak?

_Answer_.  The Court would not allow two closings.  The Attorney-
General did not care to speak in the "middle."  He wished to close,
and as he could not do that without putting Mr. Merrick out, he
concluded to remain silent.  The defendants had no objection to
his speaking, but they objected to two closing arguments for the
Government, and the Court decided they were right.  Of course, I
understand nothing about the way in which the attorneys for the
prosecution arranged their difficulties.  That was nothing to me;
neither do I care what money they received--all that is for the
next Congress.  It is not for me to speak of those questions.

_Question_.  Will there be other trials?

_Answer_.  I think not.  It does not seem likely that other attorneys
will want to try, and the old ones have.  My opinion is that we
have had the last of the Star Route trials.  It was claimed that
the one tried was the strongest.  If this is so the rest had better
be dismissed.  I think the people are tired of the whole business.
It now seems probable that all the time for the next few years will
be taken up in telling about the case that was tried.  I see that
Cook is telling about MacVeagh and James and Brewster and Bliss;
Walsh is giving his opinion of Kellogg and Foster; Bliss is saying
a few words about Cook and Gibson; Brewster is telling what Bliss
told him; Gibson will have his say about Garfield and MacVeagh,
and it now seems probable that we shall get the bottom facts about
the other jury--the actions of Messrs. Hoover, Bowen, Brewster
Cameron and others.  Personally I have no interest in the business.

_Question_.  How does the next campaign look?

_Answer_.  The Republicans are making all the mistakes they can,
and the only question now is, Can the Democrats make more?  The
tariff will be one of the great questions, and may be the only one
except success.  The Democrats are on both sides of the question.
They hate to give up the word "only."  Only for that word they
might have succeeded in 1880.  If they can let "only" alone, and
say they want "a tariff for revenue" they will do better.  The fact
is the people are not in favor of free trade, neither do they want
a tariff high enough to crush a class, but they do want a tariff
to raise a revenue and to protect our industries.  I am for protection
because it diversifies industries and develops brain--allows us to
utilize all the muscle and brain we have.  A party attacking the
manufacturing interests of this country will fail.  There are too
many millions of dollars invested and too many millions of people
interested.  The country is becoming alike interested in this
question.  We are no longer divided, as in slavery times, into
manufacturing and agricultural districts or sections.  Georgia,
Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana and Texas have manufacturing interests.
And the Western States believe in the protection of their industries.
The American people have a genius for manufacturing, a genius for
invention.  We are not the greatest painters or sculptors or
scientists, but we are without doubt the greatest inventors.  If
we were all engaged in one business we would become stupid.
Agricultural countries produce great wealth, but are never rich.
To get rich it is necessary to mix thought with labor.  To raise
the raw material is a question of strength; to manufacture, to put
it in useful and beautiful forms, is a question of mind.  There is
a vast difference between the value of, say, a milestone and a
statue, and yet the labor expended in getting the raw material is
about the same.  The point, after all, is this:  First, we must
have revenue; second, shall we get this by direct taxation or shall
we tax imports and at the same time protect American labor?  The
party that advocates reasonable protection will succeed.*

[* At this point, with far away peals of thunder, the storm ceased,
the sun reappeared and a vault of heavenly blue swung overhead.
"Let us get out," said Colonel Ingersoll.  Suiting the action to
the word, the Colonel struck out lustily for the beach, on which,
hard as a rock and firm as flint, he soon planted his sturdy form.
And as he lumbered across the sand to the side door of his comfortable
cottage, some three hundred feet from the surf, the necessarily
suggested contrast between Ingersoll in court and Ingersoll in soaked
flannels was illustrated with forcible comicality.  Half an hour
later he was found in the cozy library puffing a high flavored Havana,
and listening to home-made music of delicious quality.  Ingersoll at
home is pleasant to contemplate.  His sense of personal freedom is
there aptly pictured.  Loving wife and affectionate daughters form,
with happy-faced and genial-hearted father, a model circle into which
friends deem it a privilege to enter and a pleasure to remain.

Continuing the conversation, ]

_Question_.  In view of all this, where do you think the presidential
candidate will come from?

_Answer_.  From the West.

_Question_.  Why so?

_Answer_.  The South and East must compromise.  Both can trust the
West.  The West represents the whole country.  There is no
provincialism in the West.  The West is not old enough to have the
prejudice of section; it is too prosperous to have hatred, too
great to feel envy.

_Question_.  You do not seem to think that Arthur has a chance?

_Answer_.  No Vice-President was ever made President by the people.
It is natural to resent the accident that gave the Vice-President
the place.  They regard the Vice-President as children do a
stepmother.  He is looked upon as temporary--a device to save the
election--a something to stop a gap--a lighter--a political raft.
He holds the horse until another rider is found.  People do not
wish death to suggest nominees for the presidency.  I do not believe
it will be possible for Mr. Arthur, no matter how well he acts, to
overcome this feeling.  The people like a new man.  There is some
excitement in the campaign, and besides they can have the luxury
of believing that the new man is a great man.

_Question_.  Do you not think Arthur has grown and is a greater
man than when he was elected?

_Answer_.  Arthur was placed in very trying circumstances, and, I
think, behaved with great discretion.  But he was Vice-President,
and that is a vice that people will not pardon.

_Question_.  How do you regard the situation in Ohio?

_Answer_.  I hear that the Republicans are attacking Hoadly, saying
that he is an Infidel.  I know nothing about Mr. Hoadly's theological
sentiments, but he certainly has the right to have and express his
own views.  If the Republicans of Ohio have made up their minds to
disfranchise the Liberals, the sooner they are beaten the better.
Why should the Republican party be so particular about religious
belief?  Was Lincoln an orthodox Christian?  Were the founders of
the party--the men who gave it heart and brain--conspicuous for
piety?  Were the abolitionists all believers in the inspiration of
the Bible?  Is Judge Hoadly to be attacked because he exercises
the liberty that he gives to others?  Has not the Republican party
trouble enough with the spirituous to let the spiritual alone?  If
the religious issue is made, I hope that the party making it will
be defeated.  I know nothing about the effect of the recent decision
of the Supreme Court of Ohio.  It is a very curious decision and
seems to avoid the Constitution with neatness and despatch.  The
decision seems to rest on the difference between the words tax and
license--_I. e._, between allowing a man to sell whiskey for a tax
of one hundred dollars or giving him a license to sell whiskey and
charging him one hundred dollars.  In this, the difference is in
the law instead of the money.  So far all the prohibitory legislation
on the liquor question has been a failure.  Beer is victorious,
and Gambrinus now has Olympus all to himself.  On his side is the
"bail"--

_Question_.  But who will win?

_Answer_.  The present indications are favorable to Judge Hoadly.
It is an off year.  The Ohio leaders on one side are not in perfect
harmony.  The Germans are afraid, and they generally vote the
Democratic ticket when in doubt.  The effort to enforce the Sunday
law, to close the gardens, to make one day in the week desolate
and doleful, will give the Republicans a great deal of hard work.

_Question_.  How about Illinois?

_Answer_.  Republican always.  The Supreme Court of Illinois has
just made a good decision.  That Court decided that a contract made
on Sunday can be enforced.  In other words, that Sunday is not holy
enough to sanctify fraud.  You can rely on a State with a Court
like that.  There is very little rivalry in Illinois.  I think that
General Oglesby will be the next Governor.  He is one of the best
men in that State or any other.

_Question_.  What about Indiana?

_Answer_.  In that State I think General Gresham is the coming man.
He was a brave soldier, an able, honest judge, and he will fill
with honor any position he may be placed in.  He is an excellent
lawyer, and has as much will as was ever put in one man.  McDonald
is the most available man for the Democrats.  He is safe and in
every respect reliable.  He is without doubt the most popular man
in his party.

_Question_.  Well, Colonel, what are you up to?

_Answer_.  Nothing.  I am surrounded by sand, sea and sky.  I listen
to music, bathe in the surf and enjoy myself.  I am wondering why
people take interest in politics; why anybody cares about anything;
why everybody is not contented; why people want to climb the greased
pole of office and then dodge the brickbats of enemies and rivals;
why any man wishes to be President, or a member of Congress, or in
the Cabinet, or do anything except to live with the ones he loves,
and enjoy twenty-four hours every day.  I wonder why all New York
does not come to Long Beach and hear Schreiner's Band play the
music of Wagner, the greatest of all composers.  Finally, in the
language of Walt Whitman, "I loaf and invite my soul."

--_The Herald_, New York, July 1, 1883.
 

THE INTERVIEWER.

_Question_.  What do you think of newspaper interviewing?

_Answer_.  I believe that James Redpath claims to have invented
the "interview."  This system opens all doors, does away with
political pretence, batters down the fortifications of dignity and
official importance, pulls masks from solemn faces, compels everybody
to show his hand.  The interviewer seems to be omnipresent.  He is
the next man after the accident.  If a man should be blown up he
would likely fall on an interviewer.  He is the universal interrogation
point.  He asks questions for a living.  If the interviewer is fair
and honest he is useful, if the other way, he is still interesting.
On the whole, I regard the interviewer as an exceedingly important
person.  But whether he is good or bad, he has come to stay.  He
will interview us until we die, and then ask the "friends" a few
questions just to round the subject off.

_Question_.  What do you think of the tendency of newspapers is at
present?

_Answer_.  The papers of the future, I think, will be "news" papers.
The editorial is getting shorter and shorter.  The paragraphist is
taking the place of the heavy man.  People rather form their own
opinions from the facts.  Of course good articles will always find
readers, but the dreary, doleful, philosophical dissertation has
had its day.  The magazines will fall heir to such articles; then
religious weeklies will take them up, and then they will cease
altogether.

_Question_.  Do you think the people lead the newspapers, or do
the newspapers lead them?

_Answer_.  The papers lead and are led.  Most papers have for sale
what people want to buy.  As a rule the people who buy determine
the character of the thing sold.  The reading public grow more
discriminating every year, and, as a result, are less and less
"led."  Violent papers--those that most freely attack private
character--are becoming less hurtful, because they are losing their
own reputations.  Evil tends to correct itself.  People do not
believe all they read, and there is a growing tendency to wait and
hear from the other side.

_Question_.  Do newspapers to-day exercise as much influence as
they did twenty-five years ago?

_Answer_.  More, by the facts published, and less, by editorials.
As we become more civilized we are governed less by persons and
more by principles--less by faith and more by fact.  The best of
all leaders is the man who teaches people to lead themselves.

_Question_.  What would you define public opinion to be?

_Answer_.  First, in the widest sense, the opinion of the majority,
including all kinds of people.  Second, in a narrower sense, the
opinion of the majority of the intellectual.  Third, in actual
practice, the opinion of those who make the most noise.  Fourth,
public opinion is generally a mistake, which history records and
posterity repeats.

_Question_.  What do you regard as the result of your lectures?

_Answer_.  In the last fifteen years I have delivered several
hundred lectures.  The world is growing more and more liberal every
day.  The man who is now considered orthodox, a few years ago would
have been denounced as an Infidel.  People are thinking more and
believing less.  The pulpit is losing influence.  In the light of
modern discovery the creeds are growing laughable.  A theologian
is an intellectual mummy, and excites attention only as a curiosity.
Supernatural religion has outlived its usefulness.  The miracles
and wonders of the ancients will soon occupy the same tent.  Jonah
and Jack the Giant Killer, Joshua and Red Riding Hood, Noah and
Neptune, will all go into the collection of the famous Mother
Hubbard.

--_The Morning Journal_, New York, July 3, 1883.
 

POLITICS AND PROHIBITION.

_Question_.  What do you think of the result in Ohio?

_Answer_.  In Ohio prohibition did more harm to the Republican
chances than anything else.  The Germans hold the Republicans
responsible.  The German people believe in personal liberty.  They
came to America to get it, and they regard any interference in the
manner or quantity of their food and drink as an invasion of personal
rights.  They claim they are not questions to be regulated by law,
and I agree with them.  I believe that people will finally learn
to use spirits temperately and without abuse, but teetotalism is
intemperance in itself, which breeds resistance, and without
destroying the rivulet of the appetite only dams it and makes it
liable to break out at any moment. You can prevent a man from
stealing by tying his hands behind him, but you cannot make him
honest.  Prohibition breeds too many spies and informers, and makes
neighbors afraid of each other.  It kills hospitality.  Again, the
Republican party in Ohio is endeavoring to have Sunday sanctified
by the Legislature.  The working people want freedom on Sunday.
They wish to enjoy themselves, and all laws now making to prevent
innocent amusement, beget a spirit of resentment among the common
people.  I feel like resenting all such laws, and unless the
Republican party reforms in that particular, it ought to be defeated.
I regard those two things as the principal causes of the Republican
party's defeat in Ohio.

_Question_.  Do you believe that the Democratic success was due to
the possession of reverse principles?

_Answer_.  I do not think that the Democratic party is in favor of
liberty of thought and action in these two regards, from principle,
but rather from policy.  Finding the course pursued by the Republicans
unpopular, they adopted the opposite mode, and their success is a
proof of the truth of what I contend.  One great trouble in the
Republican party is bigotry.  The pulpit is always trying to take
charge.  The same thing exists in the Democratic party to a less
degree.  The great trouble here is that its worst element--Catholicism
--is endeavoring to get control.

_Question_.  What causes operated for the Republican success in
Iowa?

_Answer_.  Iowa is a prohibition State and almost any law on earth
as against anything to drink, can be carried there.  There are no
large cities in the State and it is much easier to govern, but even
there the prohibition law is bound to be a failure.  It will breed
deceit and hypocrisy, and in the long run the influence will be bad.

_Question_.  Will these two considerations cut any figure in the
presidential campaign of 1884?

_Answer_.  The party, as a party, will have nothing to do with
these questions.  These matters are local.  Whether the Republicans
are successful will depend more upon the country's prosperity.  If
things should be generally in pretty good shape in 1884, the people
will allow the party to remain in power.  Changes of administration
depend a great deal on the feeling of the country.  If crops are
bad and money is tight, the people blame the administration, whether
it is responsible or not.  If a ship going down the river strikes
a snag, or encounters a storm, a cry goes up against the captain.
It may not have been his fault, but he is blamed, all the same,
and the passengers at once clamor for another captain.  So it is
in politics.

If nothing interferes between this and 1884, the Republican party
will continue.  Otherwise it will be otherwise.  But the principle
of prosperity as applied to administrative change is strong.  If
the panic of 1873 had occurred in 1876 there would have been no
occasion for a commission to sit on Tilden.  If it had struck us
in 1880, Hancock would have been elected.  Neither result would
have its occasion in the superiority of the Democratic party, but
in the belief that the Republican party was in some vague way
blamable for the condition of things, and there should be a change.
The Republican party is not as strong as it used to be.  The old
leaders have dropped out and no persons have yet taken their places.
Blaine has dropped out, and is now writing a book.  Conkling dropped
out and is now practicing law, and so I might go on enumerating
leaders who have severed their connection with the party and are
no longer identified with it.

_Question_.  What is your opinion regarding the Republican nomination
for President?

_Answer_.  My belief is that the Republicans will have to nominate
some man who has not been conspicuous in any faction, and upon whom
all can unite.  As a consequence he must be a new man.  The Democrats
must do the same.  They must nominate a new man.  The old ones have
been defeated so often that they start handicapped with their own
histories, and failure in the past is very poor raw material out
of which to manufacture faith for the future.  My own judgment is
that for the Democrats, McDonald is as strong a man as they can
get.  He is a man of most excellent sense and would be regarded as
a safe man.  Tilden?  He is dead, and he occupies no stronger place
in the general heart than a graven image.  With no magnetism, he
has nothing save his smartness to recommend him.

_Question_.  What are your views, generally expressed, on the
tariff?

_Answer_.  There are a great many Democrats for protection and a
great many for so-called free trade.  I think the large majority
of American people favor a reasonable tariff for raising our revenue
and protecting our manufactures.  I do not believe in tariff for
revenue only, but for revenue and protection.  The Democrats would
have carried the country had they combined revenue and incidental
protection.

_Question_.  Are they rectifying the error now?

_Answer_.  I believe they are, already.  They will do it next fall.
If they do not put it in their platform they will embody it in
their speeches.  I do not regard the tariff as a local, but a
national issue, notwithstanding Hancock inclined to the belief that
it was the former.

--_The Times_, Chicago, Illinois, October 13, 1883.
 

THE REPUBLICAN DEFEAT IN OHIO.

_Question_.  What is your explanation of the Republican disaster
last Tuesday?

_Answer_.  Too much praying and not enough paying, is my explanation
of the Republican defeat.

_First_.  I think the attempt to pass the Prohibition Amendment
lost thousands of votes.  The people of this country, no matter
how much they may deplore the evils of intemperance, are not yet
willing to set on foot a system of spying into each other's affairs.
They know that prohibition would need thousands of officers--that
it would breed informers and spies and peekers and skulkers by the
hundred in every county.  They know that laws do not of themselves
make good people.  Good people make good laws.  Americans do not
wish to be temperate upon compulsion.  The spirit that resents
interference in these matters is the same spirit that made and
keeps this a free country.  All this crusade and prayer-meeting
business will not do in politics.  We must depend upon the countless
influences of civilization, upon science, art, music--upon the
softening influences of kindness and argument.  As life becomes
valuable people will take care of it.  Temperance upon compulsion
destroys something more valuable than itself--liberty.  I am for
the largest liberty in all things.

_Second_.  The Prohibitionists, in my opinion, traded with Democrats.
The Democrats were smart enough to know that prohibition could not
carry, and that they could safely trade.  The Prohibitionists were
insane enough to vote for their worst enemies, just for the sake
of polling a large vote for prohibition, and were fooled as usual.

_Thirdly_.  Certain personal hatreds of certain Republican politicians.
These were the causes which led to Republican defeat in Ohio.

_Question_.  Will it necessitate the nomination of an Ohio Republican
next year?

_Answer_.  I do not think so.  Defeat is apt to breed dissension,
and on account of that dissension the party will have to take a
man from some other State.  One politician will say to another,
"You did it," and another will reply, "You are the man who ruined
the party."  I think we have given Ohio her share; certainly she
has given us ours.

_Question_.  Will this reverse seriously affect Republican chances
next year?

_Answer_.  If the country is prosperous next year, if the crops
are good, if prices are fair, if Pittsburg is covered with smoke,
if the song of the spindle is heard in Lowell, if stocks are healthy,
the Republicans will again succeed.  If the reverse as to crops
and forges and spindles, then the Democrats will win.  It is a
question of "chich-bugs," and floods and drouths.

_Question_.  Who, in your judgment, would be the strongest man the
Republicans could put up?

_Answer_.  Last year I thought General Sherman, but he has gone to
Missouri, and now I am looking around.  The first day I find out
I will telegraph you.

--_The Democrat_, Dayton, Ohio, October 15, 1883.
 

THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL.

_Question_.  What do you think of the recent opinion of the Supreme
Court touching the rights of the colored man?

_Answer_.  I think it is all wrong.  The intention of the framers
of the amendment, by virtue of which the law was passed, was that
no distinction should be made in inns, in hotels, cars, or in
theatres; in short, in public places, on account of color, race,
or previous condition.  The object of the men who framed that
amendment to the Constitution was perfectly clear, perfectly well
known, perfectly understood.  They intended to secure, by an
amendment to the fundamental law, what had been fought for by
hundreds of thousands of men.  They knew that the institution of
slavery had cost rebellion; the also knew that the spirit of caste
was only slavery in another form.  They intended to kill that
spirit.  Their object was that the law, like the sun, should shine
upon all, and that no man keeping a hotel, no corporation running
cars, no person managing a theatre should make any distinction on
account of race or color.  This amendment is above all praise.  It
was the result of a moral exaltation, such as the world never before
had seen.  There were years during the war, and after, when the
American people were simply sublime; when their generosity was
boundless; when they were willing to endure any hardship to make
this an absolutely free country.

This decision of the Supreme Court puts the best people of the
colored race at the mercy of the meanest portion of the white race.
It allows a contemptible white man to trample upon a good colored
man.  I believe in drawing a line between good and bad, between
clean and unclean, but I do not believe in drawing a color line
which is as cruel as the lash of slavery.

I am willing to be on an equality in all hotels, in all cars, in
all theatres, with colored people.  I make no distinction of race.
Those make the distinction who cannot afford not to.  If nature
has made no distinction between me and some others, I do not ask
the aid of the Legislature.  I am willing to associate with all
good, clean persons, irrespective of complexion.

This decision virtually gives away one of the great principles for
which the war was fought.  It carries the doctrine of "State Rights"
to the Democratic extreme, and renders necessary either another
amendment or a new court.

I agree with Justice Harlan.  He has taken a noble and patriotic
stand.  Kentucky rebukes Massachusetts!  I am waiting with some
impatience--impatient because I anticipate a pleasure--for his
dissenting opinion.  Only a little while ago Justice Harlan took
a very noble stand on the Virginia Coupon cases, in which was
involved the right of a State to repudiate its debts.  Now he has
taken a stand in favor of the civil rights of the colored man; and
in both instances I think he is right.

This decision may, after all, help the Republican party.  A decision
of the Supreme Court aroused the indignation of the entire North,
and I hope the present decision will have a like effect.  The good
people of this country will not be satisfied until every man beneath
the flag, without the slightest respect to his complexion, stands
on a perfect equality before the law with every other.  Any government
that makes a distinction on account of color, is a disgrace to the
age in which we live.  The idea that a man like Frederick Douglass
can be denied entrance to a car, that the doors of a hotel can be
shut in his face; that he may be prevented from entering a theatre;
the idea that there shall be some ignominious corner into which
such a man can be thrown simply by a decision of the Supreme Court!
This idea is simply absurd.

_Question_.  What remains to be done now, and who is going to do it?

_Answer_.  For a good while people have been saying that the
Republican party has outlived its usefulness; that there is very
little difference now between the parties; that there is hardly
enough left to talk about.  This decision opens the whole question.
This decision says to the Republican party, "Your mission is not
yet ended.  This is not a free country.  Our flag does not protect
the rights of a human being."  This decision is the tap of a drum.
The old veterans will fall into line.  This decision gives the
issue for the next campaign, and it may be that the Supreme Court
has builded wiser than it knew.  This is a greater question than
the tariff or free trade.  It is a question of freedom, of human
rights, of the sacredness of humanity.

The real Americans, the real believers in Liberty, will give three
cheers for Judge Harlan.

One word more.  The Government is bound to protect its citizens,
not only when they are away from home, but when they are under the
flag.  In time of war the Government has a right to draft any
citizen; to put that citizen in the line of battle, and compel him
to fight for the nation.  If the Government when imperiled has the
right to compel a citizen, whether white or black, to defend with
his blood the flag, that citizen, when imperiled, has the right to
demand protection from the Nation.  The Nation cannot then say,
"You must appeal to your State."  If the citizen must appeal to
the State for redress, then the citizen should defend the State
and not the General Government, and the doctrine of State Rights
then becomes complete.

--_The National Republican_, Washington, D. C., October 17, 1883.
 

JUSTICE HARLAN AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL.

_Question_.  What do you think of Justice Harlan's dissenting
opinion in the Civil Rights case?

_Answer_.  I have just read it and think it admirable in every
respect.  It is unanswerable.  He has given to words their natural
meaning.  He has recognized the intention of the framers of the
recent amendments.  There is nothing in this opinion that is
strained, insincere, or artificial.  It is frank and manly.  It is
solid masonry, without crack or flaw.  He does not resort to legal
paint or putty, or to verbal varnish or veneer.  He states the
position of his brethren of the bench with perfect fairness, and
overturns it with perfect ease.  He has drawn an instructive parallel
between the decisions of the olden time, upholding the power of
Congress to deal with individuals in the interests of slavery, and
the power conferred on Congress by the recent amendments.  He has
shown by the old decisions, that when a duty is enjoined upon
Congress, ability to perform it is given; that when a certain end
is required, all necessary means are granted.  He also shows that
the Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and of 1850, rested entirely upon
the implied power of Congress to enforce a master's rights; and
that power was once implied in favor of slavery against human
rights, and implied from language shadowy, feeble and uncertain
when compared with the language of the recent amendments.  He has
shown, too, that Congress exercised the utmost ingenuity in devising
laws to enforce the master's claim.  Implication was held ample to
deprive a human being of his liberty, but to secure freedom, the
doctrine of implication is abandoned.  As a foundation for wrong,
implication was their rock.  As a foundation for right, it is now
sand.  Implied power then was sufficient to enslave, while power
expressly given is now impotent to protect.

_Question_.  What do you think of the use he has made of the Dred
Scott decision?

_Answer_.  Well, I think he has shown conclusively that the present
decision, under the present circumstances, is far worse than the
Dred Scott decision was under the then circumstances.  The Dred
Scott decision was a libel upon the best men of the Revolutionary
period.  That decision asserted broadly that our forefathers regarded
the negroes as having no rights which white men were bound to
respect; that the negroes were merely merchandise, and that that
opinion was fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the
white race, and that no one thought of disputing it.  Yet Franklin
contended that slavery might be abolished under the preamble of
the Constitution.  Thomas Jefferson said that if the slave should
rise to cut the throat of his master, God had no attribute that
would side against the slave.  Thomas Paine attacked the institution
with all the intensity and passion of his nature.  John Adams
regarded the institution with horror.  So did every civilized man,
South and North.

Justice Harlan shows conclusively that the Thirteenth Amendment
was adopted in the light of the Dred Scott decision; that it
overturned and destroyed, not simply the decision, but the reasoning
upon which it was based; that it proceeded upon the ground that
the colored people had rights that white men were bound to respect,
not only, but that the Nation was bound to protect.  He takes the
ground that the amendment was suggested by the condition of that
race, which had been declared by the Supreme Court of the United
States to have no rights which white men were bound to respect; that
it was made to protect people whose rights had been invaded, and
whose strong arms had assisted in the overthrow of the Rebellion;
that it was made for the purpose of putting these men upon a legal
authority with white citizens.

Justice Harland also shows that while legislation of Congress to
enforce a master's right was upheld by implication, the rights of
the negro do not depend upon that doctrine; that the Thirteenth
Amendment does not rest upon implication, or upon inference; that
by its terms it places the power in Congress beyond the possibility
of a doubt--conferring the power to enforce the amendment by
appropriate legislation in express terms; and he also shows that
the Supreme Court has admitted that legislation for that purpose
may be direct and primary.  Had not the power been given in express
terms, Justice Harlan contends that the sweeping declaration that
neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist would by
implication confer the power.  He also shows conclusively that,
under the Thirteenth Amendment, Congress has the right by appropriate
legislation to protect the colored people against the deprivation
of any right on account of their race, and that Congress is not
necessarily restricted, under the Thirteenth Amendment, to legislation
against slavery as an institution, but that power may be exerted
to the extent of protecting the race from discrimination in respect
to such rights as belong to freemen, where such discrimination is
based on race or color.

If Justice Harlan is wrong the amendments are left without force
and Congress without power.  No purpose can be assigned for their
adoption.  No object can be guessed that was to be accomplished.
They become words, so arranged that they sound like sense, but when
examined fall meaninglessly apart.  Under the decision of the
Supreme Court they are Quaker cannon--cloud forts--"property" for
political stage scenery--coats of mail made of bronzed paper--
shields of gilded pasteboard--swords of lath.

_Question_.  Do you wish to say anything as to the reasoning of
Justice Harlan on the rights of colored people on railways, in inns
and theatres?

_Answer_.  Yes, I do.  That part of the opinion is especially
strong.  He shows conclusively that a common carrier is in the
exercise of a sort of public office and has public duties to perform,
and that he cannot exonerate himself from the performance of these
duties without the consent of the parties concerned.  He also shows
that railroads are public highways, and that the railway company
is the agent of the State, and that a railway, although built by
private capital, is just as public in its nature as though constructed
by the State itself.  He shows that the railway is devoted to public
use, and subject to be controlled by the State for the public
benefit, and that for these reasons the colored man has the same
rights upon the railway that he has upon the public highway.

Justice Harlan shows that the same law is applicable to inns that
is applicable to railways; that an inn-keeper is bound to take all
travelers if he can accommodate them; that he is not to select his
guests; that he has not right to say to one "you may come in," and
to another "you shall not;" that every one who conducts himself in
a proper manner has a right to be received.  He shows conclusively
that an inn-keeper is a sort of public servant; that he is in the
exercise of a _quasi_ public employment, that he is given special
privileges, and charged with duties of a public character.

As to theatres, I think his argument most happy.  It is this:
Theatres are licensed by law.  The authority to maintain them comes
from the public.  The colored race being a part of the public,
representing the power granting the license, why should the colored
people license a manager to open his doors to the white man and
shut them in the face of the black man?  Why should they be compelled
to license that which they are not permitted to enjoy?  Justice
Harlan shows that Congress has the power to prevent discrimination
on account of race or color on railways, at inns, and in places of
public amusements, and has this power under the Thirteenth
Amendment.

In discussing the Fourteenth Amendment, Justice Harlan points out
that a prohibition upon a State is not a power in Congress or the
National Government, but is simply a denial of power to the State;
that such was the Constitution before the Fourteenth Amendment.
He shows, however, that the Fourteenth Amendment presents the first
instance in our history of the investiture of Congress with
affirmative power by legislation to enforce an express prohibition
upon the States.  This is an important point.  It is stated with
great clearness, and defended with great force.  He shows that the
first clause of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment is
of a distinctly affirmative character, and that Congress would have
had the power to legislate directly as to that section simply by
implication, but that as to that as well as the express prohibitions
upon the States, express power to legislate was given.

There is one other point made by Justice Harlan which transfixes
as with a spear the decision of the Court.  It is this:  As soon
as the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments were adopted the colored
citizen was entitled to the protection of section two, article
four, namely:  "The citizens of each State shall be entitled to
all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the several States."
Now, suppose a colored citizen of Mississippi moves to Tennessee.
Then, under the section last quoted, he would immediately become
invested with all the privileges and immunities of a white citizen
of Tennessee.  Although denied these privileges and immunities in
the State from which he emigrated, in the State to which he immigrates
he could not be discriminated against on account of his color under
the second section of the fourth article.  Now, is it possible that
he gets additional rights by immigration?  Is it possible that the
General Government is under a greater obligation to protect him in
a State of which he is not a citizen than in a State of which he
is a citizen?  Must he leave home for protection, and after he has
lived long enough in the State to which he immigrates to become a
citizen there, must he again move in order to protect his rights?
Must one adopt the doctrine of peripatetic protection--the doctrine
that the Constitution is good only _in transitu_, and that when
the citizen stops, the Constitution goes on and leaves him without
protection?

Justice Harlan shows that Congress had the right to legislate
directly while that power was only implied, but that the moment
this power was conferred in express terms, then according to the
Supreme Court, it was lost.

There is another splendid definition given by Justice Harlan--a
line drawn as broad as the Mississippi.  It is the distinction
between the rights conferred by a State and rights conferred by
the Nation.  Admitting that many rights conferred by a State cannot
be enforced directly by Congress, Justice Harlan shows that rights
granted by the Nation to an individual may be protected by direct
legislation.  This is a distinction that should not be forgotten,
and it is a definition clear and perfect.

Justice Harlan has shown that the Supreme Court failed to take into
consideration the intention of the framers of the amendment; failed
to see that the powers of Congress were given by express terms and
did not rest upon implication; failed to see that the Thirteenth
Amendment was broad enough to cover the Civil Rights Act; failed
to see that under the three amendments rights and privileges were
conferred by the Nation on citizens of the several States, and that
these rights are under the perpetual protection of the General
Government, and that for their enforcement Congress has the right
to legislate directly; failed to see that all implications are now
in favor of liberty instead of slavery; failed to comprehend that
we have a new nation with a new foundation, with different objects,
ends, and aims, for the attainment of which we use different means
and have been clothed with greater powers; failed to see that the
Republic changed front; failed to appreciate the real reasons for
the adoption of the amendments, and failed to understand that the
Civil Rights Act was passed in order that a citizen of the United
States might appeal from local prejudice to national justice.

Justice Harlan shows that it was the object to accomplish for the
black man what had been accomplished for the white man--that is,
to protect all their rights as free men and citizens; and that the
one underlying purpose of the amendments and of the congressional
legislation has been to clothe the black race with all the rights
of citizenship, and to compel a recognition of their rights by
citizens and States--that the object was to do away with class
tyranny, the meanest and basest form of oppression.

If Justice Harlan was wrong in his position, then, it may truthfully
be said of the three amendments that:

  "The law hath bubbles as the water has,
   And these are of them."

The decision of the Supreme Court denies the protection of the
Nation to the citizens of the Nation.  That decision has already
borne fruit--the massacre at Danville.  The protection of the Nation
having been withdrawn, the colored man was left to the mercy of
local prejudices and hatreds.  He is without appeal, without redress.
The Supreme Court tells him that he must depend upon his enemies
for justice.

_Question_.  You seem to agree with all that Justice Harlan has
said, and to have the greatest admiration for his opinion?

_Answer_.  Yes, a man rises from reading this dissenting opinion
refreshed, invigorated, and strengthened.  It is a mental and moral
tonic.  It was produced after a clear head had held conference with
a good heart.  It will furnish a perfectly clear plank, without
knot or wind-shake, for the next Republican platform.  It is written
in good plain English, and ornamented with good sound sense.  The
average man can and will understand its every word.  There is no
subterfuge in it.

Each position is taken in the open field.  There is no resort to
quibbles or technicalities--no hiding.  Nothing is secreted in the
sleeve--no searching for blind paths--no stooping and looking for
ancient tracks, grass-grown and dim.  Each argument travels the
highway--"the big road."  It is logical.  The facts and conclusions
agree, and fall naturally into line of battle.  It is sincere and
candid--unpretentious and unanswerable.  It is a grand defence of
human rights--a brave and manly plea for universal justice.  It
leaves the decision of the Supreme Court without argument, without
reason, and without excuse.  Such an exhibition of independence,
courage and ability has won for Justice Harlan the respect and
admiration of "both sides," and places him in the front rank of
constitutional lawyers.

--_The Inter-Ocean_, Chicago, Illinois, November 29, 1883.
 

POLITICS AND THEOLOGY.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of Brewster's administration?

_Answer_.  I hardly think I ought to say much about the administration
of Mr. Brewster.  Of course many things have been done that I
thought, and still think, extremely bad; but whether Mr. Brewster
was responsible for the things done, or not, I do not pretend to
say.  When he was appointed to his present position, there was
great excitement in the country about the Star Route cases, and
Mr. Brewster was expected to prosecute everybody and everything to
the extent of the law; in fact, I believe he was appointed by reason
of having made such a promise.  At that time there were hundreds
of people interested in exaggerating all the facts connected with
the Star Route cases, and when there were no facts to be exaggerated,
they made some, and exaggerated them afterward.  It may be that
the Attorney-General was misled, and he really supposed that all
he heard was true.  My objection to the administration of the
Department of Justice is, that a resort was had to spies and
detectives.  The battle was not fought in the open field.  Influences
were brought to bear.  Nearly all departments of the Government
were enlisted.  Everything was done to create a public opinion in
favor of the prosecution.  Everything was done that the cases might
be decided on prejudice instead of upon facts.

Everything was done to demoralize, frighten and overawe judges,
witnesses and jurors.  I do not pretend to say who was responsible,
possibly I am not an impartial judge.  I was deeply interested at
the time, and felt all of these things, rather than reasoned about
them.

Possibly I cannot give a perfectly unbiased opinion.  Personally,
I have no feeling now upon the subject.

The Department of Justice, in spite of its methods, did not succeed.
That was enough for me.  I think, however, when the country knows
the facts, that the people will not approve of what was done.  I
do not believe in trying cases in the newspapers before they are
submitted to jurors.  That is a little too early.  Neither do I
believe in trying them in the newspapers after the verdicts have
been rendered.  That is a little too late.

_Question_.  What are Mr. Blaine's chances for the presidency?

_Answer_.  My understanding is that Mr. Blaine is not a candidate
for the nomination; that he does not wish his name to be used in
that connection.  He ought to have been nominated in 1876, and if
he were a candidate, he would probably have the largest following;
but my understanding is, that he does not, in any event, wish to
be a candidate.  He is a man perfectly familiar with the politics
of this country, knows its history by heart, and is in every respect
probably as well qualified to act as its Chief Magistrate as any
man in the nation.  He is a man of ideas, of action, and has positive
qualities.  He would not wait for something to turn up, and things
would not have to wait long for him to turn them up.

_Question_.  Who do you think will be nominated at Chicago?

_Answer_.  Of course I have not the slightest idea who will be
nominated.  I may have an opinion as to who ought to be nominated,
and yet I may be greatly mistaken in that opinion.  There are
hundreds of men in the Republican party, any one of whom, if elected,
would make a good, substantial President, and there are many
thousands of men about whom I know nothing, any one of whom would
in all probability make a good President.  We do not want any man
to govern this country.  This country governs itself.  We want a
President who will honestly and faithfully execute the laws, who
will appoint postmasters and do the requisite amount of handshaking
on public occasions, and we have thousands of men who can discharge
the duties of that position.  Washington is probably the worst
place to find out anything definite upon the subject of presidential
booms.  I have thought for a long time that one of the most valuable
men in the country was General Sherman.  Everybody knows who and
what he is.  He has one great advantage--he is a frank and outspoken
man.  He has opinions and he never hesitates about letting them be
known.  There is considerable talk about Judge Harlan.  His dissenting
opinion in the Civil Rights case has made every colored man his
friend, and I think it will take considerable public patronage to
prevent a good many delegates from the Southern States voting for
him.

_Question_.  What are your present views on theology?

_Answer_.  Well, I think my views have not undergone any change
that I know of.  I still insist that observation, reason and
experience are the things to be depended upon in this world.  I
still deny the existence of the supernatural.  I still insist that
nobody can be good for you, or bad for you; that you cannot be
punished for the crimes of others, nor rewarded for their virtues.
I still insist that the consequences of good actions are always
good, and those of bad actions always bad.  I insist that nobody
can plant thistles and gather figs; neither can they plant figs
and gather thistles.  I still deny that a finite being can commit
an infinite sin; but I continue to insist that a God who would
punish a man forever is an infinite tyrant.  My views have undergone
no change, except that the evidence of that truth constantly
increases, and the dogmas of the church look, if possible, a little
absurder every day.  Theology, you know, is not a science.  It
stops at the grave; and faith is the end of theology.  Ministers
have not even the advantage of the doctors; the doctors sometimes
can tell by a post-mortem examination whether they killed the man
or not; but by cutting a man open after he is dead, the wisest
theologians cannot tell what has become of his soul, and whether
it was injured or helped by a belief in the inspiration of the
Scriptures.  Theology depends on assertion for evidence, and on
faith for disciples.

--_The Tribune_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1886.
 

MORALITY AND IMMORTALITY.

_Question_.  I see that the clergy are still making all kinds of
charges against you and your doctrines.

_Answer_.  Yes.  Some of the charges are true and some of them are
not.  I suppose that they intend to get in the vicinity of veracity,
and are probably stating my belief as it is honestly misunderstood
by them.  I admit that I have said and that I still think that
Christianity is a blunder.  But the question arises, What is
Christianity?  I do not mean, when I say that Christianity is a
blunder, that the morality taught by Christians is a mistake.
Morality is not distinctively Christian, any more than it is
Mohammedan.  Morality is human, it belongs to no ism, and does not
depend for a foundation upon the supernatural, or upon any book,
or upon any creed.  Morality is itself a foundation.  When I say
that Christianity is a blunder, I mean all those things distinctively
Christian are blunders.  It is a blunder to say that an infinite
being lived in Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, raised
the dead, cured the blind, and cast out devils, and that this God
was finally assassinated by the Jews.  This is absurd.  All these
statements are blunders, if not worse.  I do not believe that Christ
ever claimed that he was of supernatural origin, or that he wrought
miracles, or that he would rise from the dead.  If he did, he was
mistaken--honestly mistaken, perhaps, but still mistaken.

The morality inculcated by Mohammed is good.  The immorality
inculcated by Mohammed is bad.  If Mohammed was a prophet of God,
it does not make the morality he taught any better, neither does
it make the immorality any better or any worse.

By this time the whole world ought to know that morality does not
need to go into partnership with miracles.  Morality is based upon
the experience of mankind.  It does not have to learn of inspired
writers, or of gods, or of divine persons.  It is a lesson that
the whole human race has been learning and learning from experience.
He who upholds, or believes in, or teaches, the miraculous, commits
a blunder.

Now, what is morality?  Morality is the best thing to do under the
circumstances.  Anything that tends to the happiness of mankind is
moral.  Anything that tends to unhappiness is immoral.  We apply
to the moral world rules and regulations as we do in the physical
world.  The man who does justice, or tries to do so--who is honest
and kind and gives to others what he claims for himself, is a moral
man.  All actions must be judged by their consequences.  Where the
consequences are good, the actions are good.  Where the consequences
are bad, the actions are bad; and all consequences are learned from
experience.  After we have had a certain amount of experience, we
then reason from analogy.  We apply our logic and say that a certain
course will bring destruction, another course will bring happiness.
There is nothing inspired about morality--nothing supernatural.
It is simply good, common sense, going hand in hand with kindness.

Morality is capable of being demonstrated.  You do not have to take
the word of anybody; you can observe and examine for yourself.
Larceny is the enemy of industry, and industry is good; therefore
larceny is immoral.  The family is the unit of good government;
anything that tends to destroy the family is immoral.  Honesty is
the mother of confidence; it united, combines and solidifies society.
Dishonesty is disintegration; it destroys confidence; it brings
social chaos; it is therefore immoral.

I also admit that I regard the Mosaic account of the creation as
an absurdity--as a series of blunders.  Probably Moses did the best
he could.  He had never talked with Humboldt or Laplace.  He knew
nothing of geology or astronomy.  He had not the slightest suspicion
of Kepler's Three Laws.  He never saw a copy of Newton's Principia.
Taking all these things into consideration, I think Moses did the
best he could.

The religious people say now that "days" did not mean days.  Of
these "six days" they make a kind of telescope, which you can push
in or draw out at pleasure.  If the geologists find that more time
was necessary they will stretch them out.  Should it turn out that
the world is not quite as old as some think, they will push them
up.  The "six days" can now be made to suit any period of time.
Nothing can be more childish, frivolous or contradictory.

Only a few years ago the Mosaic account was considered true, and
Moses was regarded as a scientific authority.  Geology and astronomy
were measured by the Mosaic standard.  The opposite is now true.
The church has changed; and instead of trying to prove that modern
astronomy and geology are false, because they do not agree with
Moses, it is now endeavoring to prove that the account by Moses is
true, because it agrees with modern astronomy and geology.  In
other words, the standard has changed; the ancient is measured by
the modern, and where the literal statement in the Bible does not
agree with modern discoveries, they do not change the discoveries,
but give new meanings to the old account.  We are not now endeavoring
to reconcile science with the Bible, but to reconcile the Bible
with science.

Nothing shows the extent of modern doubt more than the eagerness
with which Christians search for some new testimony.  Luther answered
Copernicus with a passage of Scripture, and he answered him to the
satisfaction of orthodox ignorance.

The truth is that the Jews adopted the stories of Creation, the
Garden of Eden, Forbidden Fruit, and the Fall of Man.  They were
told by older barbarians than they, and the Jews gave them to us.

I never said that the Bible is all bad.  I have always admitted
that there are many good and splendid things in the Jewish Scriptures,
and many bad things.  What I insist is that we should have the
courage and the common sense to accept the good, and throw away
the bad.  Evil is not good because found in good company, and truth
is still truth, even when surrounded by falsehood.

_Question_.  I see that you are frequently charged with disrespect
toward your parents--with lack of reverence for the opinions of
your father?

_Answer_.  I think my father and mother upon several religious
questions were mistaken.  In fact, I have no doubt that they were;
but I never felt under the slightest obligation to defend my father's
mistakes.  No one can defend what he thinks is a mistake, without
being dishonest.  That is a poor way to show respect for parents.
Every Protestant clergyman asks men and women who had Catholic
parents to desert the church in which they were raised.  They have
no hesitation in saying to these people that their fathers and
mothers were mistaken, and that they were deceived by priests and
popes.

The probability is that we are all mistaken about almost everything;
but it is impossible for a man to be respectable enough to make a
mistake respectable.  There is nothing remarkably holy in a blunder,
or praiseworthy in stubbing the toe of the mind against a mistake.
Is it possible that logic stands paralyzed in the presence of
paternal absurdity?  Suppose a man has a bad father; is he bound
by the bad father's opinion, when he is satisfied that the opinion
is wrong?  How good does a father have to be, in order to put his
son under obligation to defend his blunders?  Suppose the father
thinks one way, and the mother the other; what are the children to
do?  Suppose the father changes his opinion; what then?  Suppose
the father thinks one way and the mother the other, and they both
die when the boy is young; and the boy is bound out; whose mistakes
is he then bound to follow?  Our missionaries tell the barbarian
boy that his parents are mistaken, that they know nothing, and that
the wooden god is nothing but a senseless idol.  They do not hesitate
to tell this boy that his mother believed lies, and hugged, it may
be to her dying heart, a miserable delusion.  Why should a barbarian
boy cast reproach upon his parents?

I believe it was Christ who commanded his disciples to leave father
and mother; not only to leave them, but to desert them; and not
only to desert father and mother, but to desert wives and children.
It is also told of Christ that he said that he came to set fathers
against children and children against fathers.  Strange that a
follower of his should object to a man differing in opinion from
his parents!  The truth is, logic knows nothing of consanguinity;
facts have no relatives but other facts; and these facts do not
depend upon the character of the person who states them, or upon
the position of the discoverer.  And this leads me to another branch
of the same subject.

The ministers are continually saying that certain great men--kings,
presidents, statesmen, millionaires--have believed in the inspiration
of the Bible.  Only the other day, I read a sermon in which Carlyle
was quoted as having said that "the Bible is a noble book."  That
all may be and yet the book not be inspired.  But what is the simple
assertion of Thomas Carlyle worth?  If the assertion is based upon
a reason, then it is worth simply the value of the reason, and the
reason is worth just as much without the assertion, but without
the reason the assertion is worthless.  Thomas Carlyle thought,
and solemnly put the thought in print, that his father was a greater
man than Robert Burns.  His opinion did Burns no harm, and his
father no good.  Since reading his "Reminiscences," I have no great
opinion of his opinion.  In some respects he was undoubtedly a
great man, in others a small one.

No man should give the opinion of another as authority and in place
of fact and reason, unless he is willing to take all the opinions
of that man.  An opinion is worth the warp and woof of fact and
logic in it and no more.  A man cannot add to the truthfulness of
truth.  In the ordinary business of life, we give certain weight
to the opinion of specialists--to the opinion of doctors, lawyers,
scientists, and historians.  Within the domain of the natural, we
take the opinions of our fellow-men; but we do not feel that we
are absolutely bound by these opinions.  We have the right to re-
examine them, and if we find they are wrong we feel at liberty to
say so.  A doctor is supposed to have studied medicine; to have
examined and explored the questions entering into his profession;
but we know that doctors are often mistaken.  We also know that
there are many schools of medicine; that these schools disagree
with one another, and that the doctors of each school disagree with
one another.  We also know that many patients die, and so far as
we know, these patients have not come back to tell us whether the
doctors killed them or not.  The grave generally prevents a
demonstration.  It is exactly the same with the clergy.  They have
many schools of theology, all despising each other.  Probably no
two members of the same church exactly agree.  They cannot demonstrate
their propositions, because between the premise and the logical
conclusion or demonstration, stands the tomb.  A gravestone marks
the end of theology.  In some cases, the physician can, by a post-
mortem examination, find what killed the patient, but there is no
theological post-mortem.  It is impossible, by cutting a body open,
to find where the soul has gone; or whether baptism, or the lack
of it, had the slightest effect upon final destiny.  The church,
knowing that there are no facts beyond the coffin, relies upon
opinions, assertions and theories.  For this reason it is always
asking alms of distinguished people.  Some President wishes to be
re-elected, and thereupon speaks about the Bible as "the corner-
stone of American Liberty."  This sentence is a mouth large enough
to swallow any church, and from that time forward the religious
people will be citing that remark of the politician to substantiate
the inspiration of the Scriptures.

The man who accepts opinions because they have been entertained by
distinguished people, is a mental snob.  When we blindly follow
authority we are serfs.  When our reason is convinced we are freemen.
It is rare to find a fully rounded and complete man.  A man may be
a great doctor and a poor mechanic, a successful politician and a
poor metaphysician, a poor painter and a good poet.

The rarest thing in the world is a logician--that is to say, a man
who knows the value of a fact.  It is hard to find mental proportion.
Theories may be established by names, but facts cannot be demonstrated
in that way.  Very small people are sometimes right, and very great
people are sometimes wrong.  Ministers are sometimes right.

In all the philosophies of the world there are undoubtedly
contradictions and absurdities.  The mind of man is imperfect and
perfect results are impossible.  A mirror, in order to reflect a
perfect picture, a perfect copy, must itself be perfect.  The mind
is a little piece of intellectual glass the surface of which is
not true, not perfect.  In consequence of this, every image is more
or less distorted.  The less we know, the more we imagine that we
can know; but the more we know, the smaller seems the sum of
knowledge.  The less we know, the more we expect, the more we hope
for, and the more seems within the range of probability.  The less
we have, the more we want.  There never was a banquet magnificent
enough to gratify the imagination of a beggar.  The moment people
begin to reason about what they call the supernatural, they seem
to lose their minds.  People seem to have lost their reason in
religious matters, very much as the dodo is said to have lost its
wings; they have been restricted to a little inspired island, and
by disuse their reason has been lost.

In the Jewish Scriptures you will find simply the literature of
the Jews.  You will find there the tears and anguish of captivity,
patriotic fervor, national aspiration, proverbs for the conduct of
daily life, laws, regulations, customs, legends, philosophy and
folly.  These books, of course, were not written by one man, but
by many authors.  They do not agree, having been written in different
centuries, under different circumstances.  I see that Mr. Beecher
has at last concluded that the Old Testament does not teach the
doctrine of immortality.  He admits that from Mount Sinai came no
hope for the dead.  It is very curious that we find in the Old
Testament no funeral service.  No one stands by the dead and predicts
another life.  In the Old Testament there is no promise of another
world.  I have sometimes thought that while the Jews were slaves
in Egypt, the doctrine of immortality became hateful.  They built
so many tombs; they carried so many burdens to commemorate the
dead; the saw a nation waste its wealth to adorn its graves, and
leave the living naked to embalm the dead, that they concluded the
doctrine was a curse and never should be taught.

_Question_.  If the Jews did not believe in immortality, how do
you account for the allusions made to witches and wizards and things
of that nature?

_Answer_.  When Saul visited the Witch of Endor, and she, by some
magic spell, called up Samuel, the prophet said:  "Why hast thou
disquieted me, to call me up?"  He did not say:  Why have you called
me from another world?  The idea expressed is:  I was asleep, why
did you disturb that repose which should be eternal?  The ancient
Jews believed in witches and wizards and familiar spirits; but they
did not seem to think that these spirits had once been men and
women.  They spoke to them as belonging to another world, a world
to which man would never find his way.  At that time it was supposed
that Jehovah and his angels lived in the sky, but that region was
not spoken of as the destined home of man.  Jacob saw angels going
up and down the ladder, but not the spirits of those he had known.
There are two cases where it seems that men were good enough to be
adopted into the family of heaven.  Enoch was translated, and Elijah
was taken up in a chariot of fire.  As it is exceedingly cold at
the height of a few miles, it is easy to see why the chariot was
of fire, and the same fact explains another circumstance--the
dropping of the mantle.  The Jews probably believed in the existence
of other beings--that is to say, in angels and gods and evil spirits
--and that they lived in other worlds--but there is no passage
showing that they believed in what we call the immortality of the
soul.

_Question_.  Do you believe, or disbelieve, in the immortality of
the soul?

_Answer_.  I neither assert nor deny; I simply admit that I do not
know.  Upon that subject I am absolutely without evidence.  This
is the only world that I was ever in.  There may be spirits, but
I have never met them, and do not know that I would recognize a
spirit.  I can form no conception of what is called spiritual life.
It may be that I am deficient in imagination, and that ministers
have no difficulty in conceiving of angels and disembodied souls.
I have not the slightest idea how a soul looks, what shape it is,
how it goes from one place to another, whether it walks or flies.
I cannot conceive of the immaterial having form; neither can I
conceive of anything existing without form, and yet the fact that
I cannot conceive of a thing does not prove that the thing does
not exist, but it does prove that I know nothing about it, and that
being so, I ought to admit my ignorance.  I am satisfied of a good
many things that I do not know.  I am satisfied that there is no
place of eternal torment.  I am satisfied that that doctrine has
done more harm than all the religious ideas, other than that, have
done good.  I do not want to take any hope from any human heart.
I have no objection to people believing in any good thing--no
objection to their expecting a crown of infinite joy for every
human being.  Many people imagine that immortality must be an
infinite good; but, after all, there is something terrible in the
idea of endless life.  Think of a river that never reaches the sea;
of a bird that never folds its wings; of a journey that never ends.
Most people find great pleasure in thinking about and in believing
in another world.  There the prisoner expects to be free; the slave
to find liberty; the poor man expects wealth; the rich man happiness;
the peasant dreams of power, and the king of contentment.  They
expect to find there what they lack here.  I do not wish to destroy
these dreams.  I am endeavoring to put out the everlasting fires.
A good, cool grave is infinitely better than the fiery furnace of
Jehovah's wrath.  Eternal sleep is better than eternal pain.  For
my part I would rather be annihilated than to be an angel, with
all the privileges of heaven, and yet have within my breast a heart
that could be happy while those who had loved me in this world were
in perdition.

I most sincerely hope that the future life will fulfill all splendid
dreams; but in the religion of the present day there is no joy.
Nothing is so devoid of comfort, when bending above our dead, as
the assertions of theology unsupported by a single fact.  The
promises are so far away, and the dead are so near.  From words
spoken eighteen centuries ago, the echoes are so weak, and the
sounds of the clods on the coffin are so loud.  Above the grave
what can the honest minister say?  If the dead were not a Christian,
what then?  What comfort can the orthodox clergyman give to the
widow of an honest unbeliever?  If Christianity is true, the other
world will be worse than this.  There the many will be miserable,
only the few happy; there the miserable cannot better their condition;
the future has no star of hope, and in the east of eternity there
can never be a dawn.

_Question_.  If you take away the idea of eternal punishment, how
do you propose to restrain men; in what way will you influence
conduct for good?

_Answer_.  Well, the trouble with religion is that it postpones
punishment and reward to another world.  Wrong is wrong, because
it breeds unhappiness.  Right is right, because it tends to the
happiness of man.  These facts are the basis of what I call the
religion of this world.  When a man does wrong, the consequences
follow, and between the cause and effect, a Redeemer cannot step.
Forgiveness cannot form a breastwork between act and consequence.

There should be a religion of the body--a religion that will prevent
deformity, that will refuse to multiply insanity, that will not
propagate disease--a religion that is judged by its consequences in
this world.  Orthodox Christianity has taught, and still teaches,
that in this world the difference between the good and the bad is
that the bad enjoy themselves, while the good carry the cross of
virtue with bleeding brows bound and pierced with the thorns of
honesty and kindness.  All this, in my judgment, is immoral.  The
man who does wrong carries a cross.  There is no world, no star,
in which the result of wrong is real happiness.  There is no world,
no star, in which the result of doing right is unhappiness.  Virtue
and vice must be the same everywhere.

Vice must be vice everywhere, because its consequences are evil;
and virtue must be virtue everywhere, because its consequences are
good.  There can be no such thing as forgiveness.  These facts are
the only restraining influences possible--the innocent man cannot
suffer for the guilty and satisfy the law.

_Question_.  How do you answer the argument, or the fact, that the
church is constantly increasing, and that there are now four hundred
millions of Christians?

_Answer_.  That is what I call the argument of numbers.  If that
argument is good now, it was always good.  If Christians were at
any time in the minority, then, according to this argument,
Christianity was wrong.  Every religion that has succeeded has
appealed to the argument of numbers.  There was a time when Buddhism
was in a majority.  Buddha not only had, but has more followers
then Christ.  Success is not a demonstration.  Mohammed was a
success, and a success from the commencement.  Upon a thousand
fields he was victor.  Of the scattered tribes of the desert, he
made a nation, and this nation took the fairest part of Europe from
the followers of the cross.  In the history of the world, the
success of Mohammed is unparalleled, but this success does not
establish that he was the prophet of God.

Now, it is claimed that there are some four hundred millions of
Christians.  To make that total I am counted as a Christian; I am
one of the fifty or sixty millions of Christians in the United
States--excluding Indians, not taxed.  By this census report, we
are all going to heaven--we are all orthodox.  At the last great
day we can refer with confidence to the ponderous volumes containing
the statistics of the United States.  As a matter of fact, how many
Christians are there in the United States--how many believers in
the inspiration of the Scriptures--how many real followers of
Christ?  I will not pretend to give the number, but I will venture
to say that there are not fifty millions.  How many in England?
Where are the four hundred millions found?  To make this immense
number, they have counted all the Heretics, all the Catholics, all
the Jews, Spiritualists, Universalists and Unitarians, all the
babes, all the idiotic and insane, all the Infidels, all the
scientists, all the unbelievers.  As a matter of fact, they have
no right to count any except the orthodox members of the orthodox
churches.  There may be more "members" now than formerly, and this
increase of members is due to a decrease of religion.  Thousands
of members are only nominal Christians, wearing the old uniform
simply because they do not wish to be charged with desertion.  The
church, too, is a kind of social institution, a club with a creed
instead of by-laws, and the creed is never defended unless attacked
by an outsider.  No objection is made to the minister because he
is liberal, if he says nothing about it in his pulpit.  A man like
Mr. Beecher draws a congregation, not because he is a Christian,
but because he is a genius; not because he is orthodox, but because
he has something to say.  He is an intellectual athlete.  He is
full of pathos and poetry.  He has more description than divinity;
more charity than creed, and altogether more common sense than
theology.  For these reasons thousands of people love to hear him.
On the other hand, there are many people who have a morbid desire
for the abnormal--for intellectual deformities--for thoughts that
have two heads.  This accounts for the success of some of Mr.
Beecher's rivals.

Christians claim that success is a test of truth.  Has any church
succeeded as well as the Catholic?  Was the tragedy of the Garden
of Eden a success?  Who succeeded there?  The last best thought is
not a success, if you mean that only that is a success which has
succeeded, and if you mean by succeeding, that it has won the assent
of the majority.  Besides there is no time fixed for the test.  Is
that true which succeeds to-day, or next year, or in the next
century?  Once the Copernican system was not a success.  There is
no time fixed.  The result is that we have to wait.  A thing to
exist at all has to be, to a certain extent, a success.  A thing
cannot even die without having been a success.  It certainly
succeeded enough to have life.  Presbyterians should remember,
while arguing the majority argument, and the success argument, that
there are far more Catholics than Protestants, and that the Catholics
can give a longer list of distinguished names.

My answer to all this, however, is that the history of the world
shows that ignorance has always been in the majority.  There is
one right road; numberless paths that are wrong.  Truth is one;
error is many.  When a great truth has been discovered, one man
has pitted himself against the world.  A few think; the many believe.
The few lead; the many follow.  The light of the new day, as it
looks over the window sill of the east, falls at first on only one
forehead.

There is another thing.  A great many people pass for Christians
who are not.  Only a little while ago a couple of ladies were
returning from church in a carriage.  They had listened to a good
orthodox sermon.  One said to the other:  "I am going to tell you
something--I am going to shock you--I do not believe in the Bible."
And the other replied:  "Neither do I."

--_The News_, Detroit, Michigan, January 6, 1884.
 

POLITICS, MORMONISM AND MR. BEECHER

_Question_.  What will be the main issues in the next presidential
campaign?

_Answer_.  I think that the principal issues will be civil rights
and protection for American industries.  The Democratic party is
not a unit on the tariff question--neither is the Republican; but
I think that a majority of the Democrats are in favor of free trade
and a majority of Republicans in favor of a protective tariff.
The Democratic Congressmen will talk just enough about free trade
to frighten the manufacturing interests of the country, and probably
not quite enough to satisfy the free traders.  The result will be
that the Democrats will talk about reforming the tariff, but will
do nothing but talk.  I think the tariff ought to be reformed in
many particulars; but as long as we need to raise a great revenue
my idea is that it ought to be so arranged as to protect to the
utmost, without producing monopoly in American manufacturers.  I
am in favor of protection because it multiplies industries; and I
am in favor of a great number of industries because they develop
the brain, because they give employment to all and allow us to
utilize all the muscle and all the sense we have.  If we were all
farmers we would grow stupid.  If we all worked at one kind of
mechanic art we would grow dull.  But with a variety of industries,
with a constant premium upon ingenuity, with the promise of wealth
as the reward of success in any direction, the people become
intelligent, and while we are protecting our industries we develop
our brains.  So I am in favor of the protection of civil rights by
the Federal Government, and that, in my judgment, will be one of
the great issues in the next campaign.

_Question_.  I see that you say that one of the great issues in
the coming campaign will be civil rights; what do you mean by that?

_Answer_.  Well, I mean this.  The Supreme Court has recently
decided that a colored man whose rights are trampled upon, in a
State, cannot appeal to the Federal Government for protection.
The decision amounts to this:  That Congress has no right until a
State has acted, and has acted contrary to the Constitution.  Now,
if a State refuses to do anything upon the subject, what is the
citizen to do?  My opinion is that the Government is bound to
protect its citizens, and as a consideration for this protection,
the citizen is bound to stand by the Government.  When the nation
calls for troops, the citizen of each State is bound to respond,
no matter what his State may think.  This doctrine must be maintained,
or the United States ceases to be a nation.  If a man looks to his
State for protection, then he must go with his State.  My doctrine
is, that there should be patriotism upon the one hand, and protection
upon the other.  If a State endeavors to secede from the Union, a
citizen of that State should be in a position to defy the State
and appeal to the Nation for protection.  The doctrine now is, that
the General Government turns the citizen over to the State for
protection, and if the State does not protect him, that is his
misfortune; and the consequence of this doctrine will be to build
up the old heresy of State Sovereignty--a doctrine that was never
appealed to except in the interest of thieving or robbery.  That
doctrine was first appealed to when the Constitution was formed,
because they were afraid the National Government would interfere
with the slave trade.  It was next appealed to, to uphold the
Fugitive Slave Law.  It was next appealed to, to give the territories
of the United States to slavery.  Then it was appealed to, to
support rebellion, and now out of this doctrine they attempt to
build a breastwork, behind which they can trample upon the rights
of free colored men.

I believe in the sovereignty of the Nation.  A nation that cannot
protect its citizens ought to stop playing nation.  In the old
times the Supreme Court found no difficulty in supporting slavery
by "inference," by "intendment," but now that liberty has become
national, the Court is driven to less than a literal interpretation.
If the Constitution does not support liberty, it is of no use.  To
maintain liberty is the only legitimate object of human government.
I hope the time will come when the judges of the Supreme Court will
be elected, say for a period of ten years.  I do not believe in
the legal monk system.  I believe in judges still maintaining an
interest in human affairs.

_Question_.  What do you think of the Mormon question?

_Answer_.  I do not believe in the bayonet plan.  Mormonism must
be done away with by the thousand influences of civilization, by
education, by the elevation of the people.  Of course, a gentleman
would rather have one noble woman than a hundred females.  I hate
the system of polygamy.  Nothing is more infamous.  I admit that
the Old Testament upholds it.  I admit that the patriarchs were
mostly polygamists.  I admit that Solomon was mistaken on that
subject.  But notwithstanding the fact that polygamy is upheld by
the Jewish Scriptures, I believe it to be a great wrong.  At the
same time if you undertake to get the idea out of the Mormons by
force you will not succeed.  I think a good way to do away with
that institution would be for all the churches to unite, bear the
expense, and send missionaries to Utah; let these ministers call
the people together and read to them the lives of David, Solomon,
Abraham and other patriarchs.  Let all the missionaries be called
home from foreign fields and teach these people that they should
not imitate the only men with whom God ever condescended to hold
intercourse.  Let these frightful examples be held up to these
people, and if it is done earnestly, it seems to me that the result
would be good.

Polygamy exists.  All laws upon the subject should take that fact
into consideration, and punishment should be provided for offences
thereafter committed.  The children of Mormons should be legitimized.
In other words, in attempting to settle this question, we should
accomplish all the good possible, with the least possible harm.

I agree mostly with Mr. Beecher, and I utterly disagree with the
Rev. Mr. Newman.  Mr. Newman wants to kill and slay.  He does not
rely upon Christianity, but upon brute force.  He has lost his
confidence in example, and appeals to the bayonet.  Mr. Newman had
a discussion with one of the Mormon elders, and was put to ignominious
flight; no wonder that he appeals to force.  Having failed in
argument, he calls for artillery; having been worsted in the appeal
to Scripture, he asks for the sword.  He says, failing to convert,
let us kill; and he takes this position in the name of the religion
of kindness and forgiveness.

Strange that a minister now should throw away the Bible and yell
for a bayonet; that he should desert the Scriptures and call for
soldiers; that he should lose confidence in the power of the Spirit
and trust in a sword.  I recommend that Mormonism be done away with
by distributing the Old Testament throughout Utah.

_Question_.  What do you think of the investigation of the Department
of Justice now going on?

_Answer_.  The result, in my judgment, will depend on its thoroughness.
If Mr. Springer succeeds in proving exactly what the Department of
Justice did, the methods pursued, if he finds out what their spies
and detectives and agents were instructed to do, then I think the
result will be as disastrous to the Department as beneficial to
the country.  The people seem to have forgotten that a little while
after the first Star Route trial three of the agents of the Department
of Justice were indicted for endeavoring to bribe the jury.  They
forget that Mr. Bowen, an agent of the Department of Justice, is
a fugitive, because he endeavored to bribe the foreman of the jury.
They seem to forget that the Department of Justice, in order to
cover its own tracks, had the foreman of the jury indicted because
one of its agents endeavored to bribe him.  Probably this investigation
will nudge the ribs of the public enough to make people remember
these things.  Personally, I have no feelings on the subject.  It
was enough for me that we succeeded in thwarting its methods, in
spite of the detectives, spies, and informers.

The Department is already beginning to dissolve.  Brewster Cameron
has left it, and as a reward has been exiled to Arizona.  Mr.
Brewster will probably be the next to pack his official valise.
A few men endeavored to win popularity by pursuing a few others,
and thus far they have been conspicuous failures.  MacVeagh and
James are to-day enjoying the oblivion earned by misdirected energy,
and Mr. Brewster will soon keep them company.  The history of the
world does not furnish an instance of more flagrant abuse of power.
There never was a trial as shamelessly conducted by a government.
But, as I said before, I have no feeling now except that of pity.

_Question_.  I see that Mr. Beecher is coming round to your views
on theology?

_Answer_.  I would not have the egotism to say that he was coming
round to my views, but evidently Mr. Beecher has been growing.
His head has been instructed by his heart; and if a man will allow
even the poor plant of pity to grow in his heart he will hold in
infinite execration all orthodox religion.  The moment he will
allow himself to think that eternal consequences depend upon human
life; that the few short years we live in the world determine for
an eternity the question of infinite joy or infinite pain; the
moment he thinks of that he will see that it is an infinite absurdity.
For instance, a man is born in Arkansas and lives there to be
seventeen or eighteen years of age, is it possible that he can be
truthfully told at the day of judgment that he had a fair chance?
Just imagine a man being held eternally responsible for his conduct
in Delaware!  Mr. Beecher is a man of great genius--full of poetry
and pathos.  Every now and then he is driven back by the orthodox
members of his congregation toward the old religion, and for the
benefit of those weak disciples he will preach what is called "a
doctrinal sermon;" but before he gets through with it, seeing that
it is infinitely cruel, he utters a cry of horror, and protests
with all the strength of his nature against the cruelty of the
creed.  I imagine that he has always thought that he was under
great obligation to Plymouth Church, but the truth is that the
church depends upon him; that church gets its character from Mr.
Beecher.  He has done a vast deal to ameliorate the condition of
the average orthodox mind.  He excites the envy of the mediocre
minister, and he excites the hatred of the really orthodox, but he
receives the approbation of good and generous men everywhere.  For
my part, I have no quarrel with any religion that does not threaten
eternal punishment to very good people, and that does not promise
eternal reward to very bad people.  If orthodox Christianity is
true, some of the best people I know are going to hell, and some
of the meanest I have ever known are either in heaven or on the
road.  Of course, I admit that there are thousands and millions of
good Christians--honest and noble people, but in my judgment, Mr.
Beecher is the greatest man in the world who now occupies a pulpit.
* * * * *
Speaking of a man's living in Delaware, a young man, some time ago,
came up to me on the street, in an Eastern city and asked for money.
"What is your business," I asked.  "I am a waiter by profession."
"Where do you come from?"  "Delaware."  "Well, what was the matter
--did you drink, or cheat your employer, or were you idle?"  "No."
"What was the trouble?"  "Well, the truth is, the State is so small
they don't need any waiters; they all reach for what they want."

_Question_.  Do you not think there are some dangerous tendencies
in Liberalism?

_Answer_.  I will first state this proposition:  The credit system
in morals, as in business, breeds extravagance.  The cash system
in morals, as well as in business, breeds economy.  We will suppose
a community in which everybody is bound to sell on credit, and in
which every creditor can take the benefit of the bankrupt law every
Saturday night, and the constable pays the costs.  In my judgment
that community would be extravagant as long as the merchants lasted.
We will take another community in which everybody has to pay cash,
and in my judgment that community will be a very economical one.
Now, then, let us apply this to morals.  Christianity allows
everybody to sin on a credit, and allows a man who has lived, we
will say sixty-nine years, what Christians are pleased to call a
worldly life, an immoral life.  They allow him on his death-bed,
between the last dose of medicine and the last breath, to be
converted, and that man who has done nothing except evil, becomes
an angel.  Here is another man who has lived the same length of
time, doing all the good he possibly could do, but not meeting with
what they are pleased to call "a change of heart;" he goes to a
world of pain.  Now, my doctrine is that everybody must reap exactly
what he sows, other things being equal.  If he acts badly he will
not be very happy; if he acts well he will not be very sad.  I
believe in the doctrine of consequences, and that every man must
stand the consequences of his own acts.  It seems to me that that
fact will have a greater restraining influence than the idea that
you can, just before you leave this world, shift your burden on to
somebody else.  I am a believer in the restraining influences of
liberty, because responsibility goes hand in hand with freedom.
I do not believe that the gallows is the last step between earth
and heaven.  I do not believe in the conversion and salvation of
murderers while their innocent victims are in hell.  The church
has taught so long that he who acts virtuously carries a cross,
and that only sinners enjoy themselves, that it may be that for a
little while after men leave the church they may go to extremes
until they demonstrate for themselves that the path of vice is the
path of thorns, and that only along the wayside of virtue grow the
flowers of joy.  The church has depicted virtue as a sour, wrinkled
termagant; an old woman with nothing but skin and bones, and a
temper beyond description; and at the same time vice has been
painted in all the voluptuous outlines of a Greek statue.  The
truth is exactly the other way.  A thing is right because it pays;
a thing is wrong because it does not; and when I use the word
"pays," I mean in the highest and noblest sense.

--_The Daily News_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884.
 

FREE TRADE AND CHRISTIANITY.

_Question_.  Who will be the Republican nominee for President?

_Answer_.  The correct answer to this question would make so many
men unhappy that I have concluded not to give it.

_Question_.  Has not the Democracy injured itself irretrievably by
permitting the free trade element to rule it?

_Answer_.  I do not think that the Democratic party weakened itself
by electing Carlisle, Speaker.  I think him an excellent man, an
exceedingly candid man, and one who will do what he believes ought
to be done.  I have a very high opinion of Mr. Carlisle.  I do not
suppose any party in this country is really for free trade.  I find
that all writers upon the subject, no matter which side they are
on, are on that side with certain exceptions.  Adam Smith was in
favor of free trade, with a few exceptions, and those exceptions
were in matters where he thought it was for England's interest not
to have free trade.  The same may be said of all writers.  So far
as I can see, the free traders have all the arguments and the
protectionists all the facts.  The free trade theories are splendid,
but they will not work; the results are disastrous.  We find by
actual experiment that it is better to protect home industries.
It was once said that protection created nothing but monopoly; the
argument was that way, but the facts are not.  Take, for instance,
steel rails; when we bought them of England we paid one hundred
and twenty-five dollars a ton.  I believe there was a tariff of
twenty-eight or twenty-nine dollars a ton, and yet in spite of all
the arguments going to show that protection would simply increase
prices in America, would simply enrich the capitalists and impoverish
the consumer, steel rails are now produced, I believe, right here
in Colorado for forty-two dollars a ton.

After all, it is a question of labor; a question of prices that
shall be paid the laboring man; a question of what the laboring
man shall eat; whether he shall eat meat or soup made from the
bones.  Very few people take into consideration the value of raw
material and the value of labor.  Take, for instance, your ton of
steel rails worth forty-two dollars.  The iron in the earth is not
worth twenty-five cents.  The coal in the earth and the lime in
the ledge together are not worth twenty-five cents.  Now, then, of
the forty-two dollars, forty-one and a half is labor.  There is
not two dollars' worth of raw material in a locomotive worth fifteen
thousand dollars.  By raw material I mean the material in the earth.
There is not in the works of a watch which will sell for fifteen
dollars, raw material of the value of one-half cent.  All the rest
is labor.  A ship, a man-of-war that costs one million dollars--
the raw material in the earth is not worth, in my judgment, one
thousand dollars.  All the rest is labor.  If there is any way to
protect American labor, I am in favor of it.  If the present tariff
does not do it, then I am in favor of changing to one that will.
If the Democratic party takes a stand for free trade or anything
like it, they will need protection; they will need protection at
the polls; that is to say, they will meet only with defeat and
disaster.

_Question_.  What should be done with the surplus revenue?

_Answer_.  My answer to that is, reduce internal revenue taxation
until the present surplus is exhausted, and then endeavor so to
arrange your tariff that you will not produce more than you need.
I think the easiest question to grapple with on this earth is a
surplus of money.

I do not believe in distributing it among the States.  I do not think
there could be a better certificate of the prosperity of our country
than the fact that we are troubled with a surplus revenue; that we
have the machinery for collecting taxes in such perfect order, so
ingeniously contrived, that it cannot be stopped; that it goes
right on collecting money, whether we want it or not; and the
wonderful thing about it is that nobody complains.  If nothing else
can be done with the surplus revenue, probably we had better pay
some of our debts.  I would suggest, as a last resort, to pay a
few honest claims.

_Question_.  Are you getting nearer to or farther away from God,
Christianity and the Bible?

_Answer_.  In the first place, as Mr. Locke so often remarked, we
will define our terms.  If by the word "God" is meant a person, a
being, who existed before the creation of the universe, and who
controls all that is, except himself, I do not believe in such a
being; but if by the word God is meant all that is, that is to say,
the universe, including every atom and every star, then I am a
believer.  I suppose the word that would nearest describe me is
"Pantheist."  I cannot believe that a being existed from eternity,
and who finally created this universe after having wasted an eternity
in idleness; but upon this subject I know just as little as anybody
ever did or ever will, and, in my judgment, just as much.  My
intellectual horizon is somewhat limited, and, to tell you the
truth, this is the only world that I was ever in.  I am what might
be called a representative of a rural district, and, as a matter
of fact, I know very little about the district.  I believe it was
Confucius who said:  "How should I know anything about another
world when I know so little of this?"

The greatest intellects of the world have endeavored to find words
to express their conception of God, of the first cause, or of the
science of being, but they have never succeeded.  I find in the
old Confession of Faith, in the old Catechism, for instance, this
description:  That God is a being without body, parts or passions.
I think it would trouble anybody to find a better definition of
nothing.  That describes a vacuum, that is to say, that describes
the absence of everything.  I find that theology is a subject that
only the most ignorant are certain about, and that the more a man
thinks, the less he knows.

From the Bible God, I do not know that I am going farther and
farther away.  I have been about as far as a man could get for many
years.  I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament.

Now, as to the next branch of your question, Christianity.

The question arises, What is Christianity?  I have no objection to
the morality taught as a part of Christianity, no objection to its
charity, its forgiveness, its kindness; no objection to its hope
for this world and another, not the slightest, but all these things
do not make Christianity.  Mohammed taught certain doctrines that
are good, but the good in the teachings of Mohammed is not Mohammedism.
When I speak of Christianity I speak of that which is distinctly
Christian.  For instance, the idea that the Infinite God was born
in Palestine, learned the carpenter's trade, disputed with the
parsons of his time, excited the wrath of the theological bigots,
and was finally crucified; that afterward he was raised from the
dead, and that if anybody believes this he will be saved and if he
fails to believe it, he will be lost; in other words, that which
is distinctly Christian in the Christian system, is its supernaturalism,
its miracles, its absurdity.  Truth does not need to go into
partnership with the supernatural.  What Christ said is worth the
reason it contains.  If a man raises the dead and then says twice
two are five, that changes no rule in mathematics.  If a multiplication
table was divinely inspired, that does no good.  The question is,
is it correct?  So I think that in the world of morals, we must
prove that a thing is right or wrong by experience, by analogy,
not by miracles.  There is no fact in physical science that can be
supernaturally demonstrated.  Neither is there any fact in the
moral world that could be substantiated by miracles.  Now, then,
keeping in mind that by Christianity I mean the supernatural in
that system, of course I am just as far away from it as I can get.
For the man Christ I have respect.  He was an infidel in his day,
and the ministers of his day cried out blasphemy, as they have been
crying ever since, against every person who has suggested a new
thought or shown the worthlessness of an old one.

Now, as to the third part of the question, the Bible.  People say
that the Bible is inspired.  Well, what does inspiration mean?
Did God write it?  No; but the men who did write it were guided by
the Holy Spirit.  Very well.  Did they write exactly what the Holy
Spirit wanted them to write?  Well, religious people say, yes.  At
the same time they admit that the gentlemen who were collecting,
or taking down in shorthand what was said, had to use their own
words.  Now, we all know that the same words do not have the same
meaning to all people.  It is impossible to convey the same thoughts
to all minds by the same language, and it is for that reason that
the Bible has produced so many sects, not only disagreeing with
each other, but disagreeing among themselves.

We find, then, that it is utterly impossible for God (admitting
that there is one) to convey the same thoughts in human language
to all people.  No two persons understand the same language alike.
A man's understanding depends upon his experience, upon his capacity,
upon the particular bent of his mind--in fact, upon the countless
influences that have made him what he is.  Everything in nature
tells everyone who sees it a story, but that story depends upon
the capacity of the one to whom it is told.  The sea says one thing
to the ordinary man, and another thing to Shakespeare.  The stars
have not the same language for all people.  The consequence is that
no book can tell the same story to any two persons.  The Jewish
Scriptures are like other books, written by different men in
different ages of the world, hundreds of years apart, filled with
contradictions.  They embody, I presume, fairly enough, the wisdom
and ignorance, the reason and prejudice, of the times in which they
were written.  They are worth the good that is in them, and the
question is whether we will take the good and throw the bad away.
There are good laws and bad laws.  There are wise and foolish
sayings.  There are gentle and cruel passages, and you can find a
text to suit almost any frame of mind; whether you wish to do an
act of charity or murder a neighbor's babe, you will find a passage
that will exactly fit the case.  So that I can say that I am still
for the reasonable, for the natural; and am still opposed to the
absurd and supernatural.

_Question_.  Is there any better or more ennobling belief than
Christianity; if so, what is it?

_Answer_.  There are many good things, of course, in every religion,
or they would not have existed; plenty of good precepts in
Christianity, but the thing that I object to more than all others
is the doctrine of eternal punishment, the idea of hell for many
and heaven for the few.  Take from Christianity the doctrine of
eternal punishment and I have no particular objection to what is
generally preached.  If you will take that away, and all the
supernatural connected with it, I have no objection; but that
doctrine of eternal punishment tends to harden the human heart.
It has produced more misery than all the other doctrines in the
world.  It has shed more blood; it has made more martyrs.  It has
lighted the fires of persecution and kept the sword of cruelty wet
with heroic blood for at least a thousand years.  There is no crime
that that doctrine has not produced.  I think it would be impossible
for the imagination to conceive of a worse religion than orthodox
Christianity--utterly impossible; a doctrine that divides this
world, a doctrine that divides families, a doctrine that teaches
the son that he can be happy, with his mother in perdition; the
husband that he can be happy in heaven while his wife suffers the
agonies of hell.  This doctrine is infinite injustice, and tends
to subvert all ideas of justice in the human heart.  I think it
would be impossible to conceive of a doctrine better calculated to
make wild beasts of men than that; in fact, that doctrine was born
of all the wild beast there is in man.  It was born of infinite
revenge.

Think of preaching that you must believe that a certain being was
the son of God, no matter whether your reason is convinced or not.
Suppose one should meet, we will say on London Bridge, a man clad
in rags, and he should stop us and say, "My friend, I wish to talk
with you a moment.  I am the rightful King of Great Britain," and
you should say to him, "Well, my dinner is waiting; I have no time
to bother about who the King of England is," and then he should
meet another and insist on his stopping while the pulled out some
papers to show that he was the rightful King of England, and the
other man should say, "I have got business here, my friend; I am
selling goods, and I have no time to bother my head about who the
King of England is.  No doubt you are the King of England, but you
don't look like him."  And then suppose he stops another man, and
makes the same statement to him, and the other man should laugh at
him and say, "I don't want to hear anything on this subject; you
are crazy; you ought to go to some insane asylum, or put something
on your head to keep you cool."  And suppose, after all, it should
turn out that the man was King of England, and should afterward
make his claim good and be crowned in Westminster.  What would we
think of that King if he should hunt up the gentlemen that he met
on London Bridge, and have their heads cut off because they had
no faith that he was the rightful heir?  And what would we think
of a God now who would damn a man eighteen hundred years after the
event, because he did not believe that he was God at the time he
was living in Jerusalem; not only damn the fellows that he met and
who did not believe him, but gentlemen who lived eighteen hundred
years afterward, and who certainly could have known nothing of the
facts except from hearsay?

The best religion, after all, is common sense; a religion for this
world, one world at a time, a religion for to-day.  We want a
religion that will deal in questions in which we are interested.
How are we to do away with crime?  How are we to do away with
pauperism?  How are we to do away with want and misery in every
civilized country?  England is a Christian nation, and yet about
one in six in the city of London dies in almshouses, asylums,
prisons, hospitals and jails.  We, I suppose, are a civilized
nation, and yet all the penitentiaries are crammed; there is want
on every hand, and my opinion is that we had better turn our
attention to this world.

Christianity is charitable; Christianity spends a great deal of
money; but I am somewhat doubtful as to the good that is accomplished.
There ought to be some way to prevent crime; not simply to punish
it.  There ought to be some way to prevent pauperism, not simply
to relieve temporarily a pauper, and if the ministers and good
people belonging to the churches would spend their time investigating
the affairs of this world and let the New Jerusalem take care of
itself, I think it would be far better.

The church is guilty of one great contradiction.  The ministers
are always talking about worldly people, and yet, were it not for
worldly people, who would pay the salary?  How could the church
live a minute unless somebody attended to the affairs of this world?
The best religion, in my judgment, is common sense going along hand
in hand with kindness, and not troubling ourselves about another
world until we get there.  I am willing for one, to wait and see
what kind of a country it will be.

_Question_.  Does the question of the inspiration of Scriptures
affect the beauty and benefits of Christianity here and hereafter?

_Answer_.  A belief in the inspiration of the Scriptures has done,
in my judgment, great harm.  The Bible has been the breastwork for
nearly everything wrong.  The defenders of slavery relied on the
Bible.  The Bible was the real auction block on which every negro
stood when he was sold.  I never knew a minister to preach in favor
of slavery that did not take his text from the Bible.  The Bible
teaches persecution for opinion's sake.  The Bible--that is the
Old Testament--upholds polygamy, and just to the extent that men,
through the Bible, have believed that slavery, religious persecution,
wars of extermination and polygamy were taught by God, just to that
extent the Bible has done great harm.  The idea of inspiration
enslaves the human mind and debauches the human heart.

_Question_.  Is not Christianity and the belief in God a check upon
mankind in general and thus a good thing in itself?

_Answer_.  This, again, brings up the question of what you mean by
Christianity, but taking it for granted that you mean by Christianity
the church, then I answer, when the church had almost absolute
authority, then the world was the worst.

Now, as to the other part of the question, "Is not a belief in God
a check upon mankind in general?"  That is owing to what kind of
God the man believes in.  When mankind believed in the God of the
Old Testament, I think that belief was a bad thing; the tendency
was bad.  I think that John Calvin patterned after Jehovah as nearly
as his health and strength would permit.  Man makes God in his own
image, and bad men are not apt to have a very good God if they make
him.  I believe it is far better to have a real belief in goodness,
in kindness, in honesty and in mankind than in any supernatural
being whatever.  I do not suppose it would do any harm for a man
to believe in a real good God, a God without revenge, a God that
was not very particular in having a man believe a doctrine whether
he could understand it or not.  I do not believe that a belief of
that kind would do any particular harm.

There is a vast difference between the God of John Calvin and the
God of Henry Ward Beecher, and a great difference between the God
of Cardinal Pedro Gonzales de Mendoza and the God of Theodore
Parker.

_Question_.  Well, Colonel, is the world growing better or worse?

_Answer_.  I think better in some respects and worse in others;
but on the whole, better.  I think that while events, like the
pendulum of a clock, go backward and forward, man, like the hands,
goes forward.  I think there is more reason and less religion, more
charity and less creed.  I think the church is improving.  Ministers
are ashamed to preach the old doctrines with the old fervor.  There
was a time when the pulpit controlled the pews.  It is so no longer.
The pews know what they want, and if the minister does not furnish
it they discharge him and employ another.  He is no longer an
autocrat; he must bring to the market what his customers are willing
to buy.

_Question_.  What are you going to do to be saved?

_Answer_.  Well, I think I am safe, anyway.  I suppose I have a
right to rely on what Matthew says, that if I will forgive others
God will forgive me.  I suppose if there is another world I shall
be treated very much as I treat others.  I never expect to find
perfect bliss anywhere; maybe I should tire of it if I should.
What I have endeavored to do has been to put out the fires of an
ignorant and cruel hell; to do what I could to destroy that dogma;
to destroy the doctrine that makes the cradle as terrible as the
coffin.

--_The Denver Republican_, Denver, Colorado, January 17, 1884.
 

THE OATH QUESTION.

_Question_.  I suppose that your attention has been called to the
excitement in England over the oath question, and you have probably
wondered that so much should have been made of so little?

_Answer_.  Yes; I have read a few articles upon the subject,
including one by Cardinal Newman.  It is wonderful that so many
people imagine that there is something miraculous in the oath.
They seem to regard it as a kind of verbal fetich, a charm, an "open
sesame" to be pronounced at the door of truth, a spell, a kind of
moral thumbscrew, by means of which falsehood itself is compelled
to turn informer.

The oath has outlived its brother, "the wager of battle."  Both
were born of the idea that God would interfere for the right and
for the truth.  Trial by fire and by water had the same origin.
It was once believed that the man in the wrong could not kill the
man in the right; but, experience having shown that he usually did,
the belief gradually fell into disrepute.  So it was once thought
that a perjurer could not swallow a piece of sacramental bread;
but, the fear that made the swallowing difficult having passed
away, the appeal to the corsned was abolished.  It was found that
a brazen or a desperate man could eat himself out of the greatest
difficulty with perfect ease, satisfying the law and his own hunger
at the same time.

The oath is a relic of barbarous theology, of the belief that a
personal God interferes in the affairs of men; that some God protects
innocence and guards the right.  The experience of the world has
sadly demonstrated the folly of that belief.  The testimony of a
witness ought to be believed, not because it is given under the
solemnities of an oath, but because it is reasonable.  If unreasonable
it ought to be thrown aside.  The question ought not to be, "Has
this been sworn to?" but, "Is this true?"  The moment evidence is
tested by the standard of reason, the oath becomes a useless
ceremony.  Let the man who gives false evidence be punished as the
lawmaking power may prescribe.  He should be punished because he
commits a crime against society, and he should be punished in this
world.  All honest men will tell the truth if they can; therefore,
oaths will have no effect upon them.  Dishonest men will not tell
the truth unless the truth happens to suit their purpose; therefore,
oaths will have no effect upon them.  We punish them, not for
swearing to a lie, but for telling it, and we can make the punishment
for telling the falsehood just as severe as we wish.  If they are
to be punished in another world, the probability is that the
punishment there will be for having told the falsehood here.  After
all, a lie is made no worse by an oath, and the truth is made no
better.

_Question_.  You object then to the oath.  Is your objection based
on any religious grounds, or on any prejudice against the ceremony
because of its religious origin; or what is your objection?

_Answer_.  I care nothing about the origin of the ceremony.  The
objection to the oath is this:  It furnishes a falsehood with a
letter of credit.  It supplies the wolf with sheep's clothing and
covers the hands of Jacob with hair.  It blows out the light, and
in the darkness Leah is taken for Rachel.  It puts upon each witness
a kind of theological gown.  This gown hides the moral rags of the
depraved wretch as well as the virtues of the honest man.  The oath
is a mask that falsehood puts on, and for a moment is mistaken for
truth.  It gives to dishonesty the advantage of solemnity.  The
tendency of the oath is to put all testimony on an equality.  The
obscure rascal and the man of sterling character both "swear," and
jurors who attribute a miraculous quality to the oath, forget the
real difference in the men, and give about the same weight to the
evidence of each, because both were "sworn."  A scoundrel is
delighted with the opportunity of going through a ceremony that
gives importance and dignity to his story, that clothes him for
the moment with respectability, loans him the appearance of
conscience, and gives the ring of true coin to the base metal.  To
him the oath is a shield.  He is in partnership, for a moment, with
God, and people who have no confidence in the witness credit the
firm.

_Question_.  Of course you know the religionists insist that people
are more likely to tell the truth when "sworn," and that to take
away the oath is to destroy the foundation of testimony?

_Answer_.  If the use of the oath is defended on the ground that
religious people need a stimulus to tell the truth, then I am
compelled to say that religious people have been so badly educated
that they mistake the nature of the crime.

They should be taught that to defeat justice by falsehood is the
real offence.  Besides, fear is not the natural foundation of
virtue.  Even with religious people fear cannot always last.
Ananias and Sapphira have been dead so long, and since their time
so many people have sworn falsely without affecting their health
that the fear of sudden divine vengeance no longer pales the cheek
of the perjurer.  If the vengeance is not sudden, then, according
to the church, the criminal will have plenty of time to repent; so
that the oath no longer affects even the fearful.  Would it not be
better for the church to teach that telling the falsehood is the
real crime, and that taking the oath neither adds to nor takes from
its enormity?  Would it not be better to teach that he who does
wrong must suffer the consequences, whether God forgives him or not?

He who tries to injure another may or may not succeed, but he cannot
by any possibility fail to injure himself.  Men should be taught
that there is no difference between truth-telling and truth-swearing.
Nothing is more vicious than the idea that any ceremony or form of
words--hand-lifting or book-kissing--can add, even in the slightest
degree, to the perpetual obligation every human being is under to
speak the truth.

The truth, plainly told, naturally commends itself to the intelligent.
Every fact is a genuine link in the infinite chain, and will agree
perfectly with every other fact.  A fact asks to be inspected, asks
to be understood.  It needs no oath, no ceremony, no supernatural
aid.  It is independent of all the gods.  A falsehood goes in
partnership with theology, and depends on the partner for success.

To show how little influence for good has been attributed to the
oath, it is only necessary to say that for centuries, in the
Christian world, no person was allowed to testify who had the
slightest pecuniary interest in the result of a suit.

The expectation of a farthing in this world was supposed to outweigh
the fear of God's wrath in the next.  All the pangs, pains, and
penalties of perdition were considered as nothing when compared
with pounds, shillings and pence in this world.

_Question_.  You know that in nearly all deliberative bodies--in
parliaments and congresses--an oath or an affirmation is required
to support what is called the Constitution; and that all officers
are required to swear or affirm that they will discharge their
duties; do these oaths and affirmations, in your judgment, do any
good?

_Answer_.  Men have sought to make nations and institutions immortal
by oaths.  Subjects have sworn to obey kings, and kings have sworn
to protect subjects, and yet the subjects have sometimes beheaded
a king; and the king has often plundered the subjects.  The oaths
enabled them to deceive each other.  Every absurdity in religion,
and all tyrannical institutions, have been patched, buttressed,
and reinforced by oaths; and yet the history of the world shows
the utter futility of putting in the coffin of an oath the political
and religious aspirations of the race.

Revolutions and reformations care little for "So help me God."
Oaths have riveted shackles and sanctified abuses.  People swear
to support a constitution, and they will keep the oath as long as
the constitution supports them.  In 1776 the colonists cared nothing
for the fact that they had sworn to support the British crown.
All the oaths to defend the Constitution of the United States did
not prevent the Civil War.  We have at last learned that States
may be kept together for a little time, by force; permanently only
by mutual interests.  We have found that the Delilah of superstition
cannot bind with oaths the secular Samson.

Why should a member of Parliament or of Congress swear to maintain
the Constitution?  If he is a dishonest man, the oath will have no
effect; if he is an honest patriot, it will have no effect.  In
both cases it is equally useless.  If a member fails to support
the Constitution the probability is that his constituents will
treat him as he does the Constitution.  In this country, after all
the members of Congress have sworn or affirmed to defend the
Constitution, each political party charges the other with a deliberate
endeavor to destroy that "sacred instrument."  Possibly the political
oath was invented to prevent the free and natural development of
a nation.  Kings and nobles and priests wished to retain the property
they had filched and clutched, and for that purpose they compelled
the real owners to swear that they would support and defend the
law under color of which the theft and robbery had been accomplished.

So, in the church, creeds have been protected by oaths.  Priests
and laymen solemnly swore that they would, under no circumstances,
resort to reason; that they would overcome facts by faith, and
strike down demonstrations with the "sword of the spirit."  Professors
of the theological seminary at Andover, Massachusetts, swear to
defend certain dogmas and to attack others.  They swear sacredly
to keep and guard the ignorance they have.  With them, philosophy
leads to perjury, and reason is the road to crime.  While theological
professors are not likely to make an intellectual discovery, still
it is unwise, by taking an oath, to render that certain which is
only improbable.

If all witnesses sworn to tell the truth, did so, if all members
of Parliament and of Congress, in taking the oath, became intelligent,
patriotic, and honest, I should be in favor of retaining the
ceremony; but we find that men who have taken the same oath advocate
opposite ideas, and entertain different opinions, as to the meaning
of constitutions and laws.  The oath adds nothing to their
intelligence; does not even tend to increase their patriotism, and
certainly does not make the dishonest honest.

_Question_.  Are not persons allowed to testify in the United States
whether they believe in future rewards and punishments or not?

_Answer_.  In this country, in most of the States, witnesses are
allowed to testify whether they believe in perdition and paradise
or not.  In some States they are allowed to testify even if they
deny the existence of God.  We have found that religious belief
does not compel people to tell the truth, and than an utter denial
of every Christian creed does not even tend to make them dishonest.
You see, a religious belief does not affect the senses.  Justice
should not shut any door that leads to truth.  No one will pretend
that, because you do not believe in hell, your sight is impaired,
or your hearing dulled, or your memory rendered less retentive.
A witness in a court is called upon to tell what he has seen, what
he has heard, what he remembers, not what he believes about gods
and devils and hells and heavens.  A witness substantiates not a
faith, but a fact.  In order to ascertain whether a witness will
tell the truth, you might with equal propriety examine him as to
his ideas about music, painting or architecture, as theology.  A
man may have no ear for music, and yet remember what he hears.  He
may care nothing about painting, and yet is able to tell what he
sees.  So he may deny every creed, and yet be able to tell the
facts as he remembers them.

Thomas Jefferson was wise enough so to frame the Constitution of
Virginia that no person could be deprived of any civil right on
account of his religious or irreligious belief.  Through the
influence of men like Paine, Franklin and Jefferson, it was provided
in the Federal Constitution that officers elected under its authority
could swear or affirm.  This was the natural result of the separation
of church and state.

_Question_.  I see that your Presidents and Governors issue their
proclamations calling on the people to assemble in their churches
and offer thanks to God.  How does this happen in a Government
where church and state are not united?

_Answer_.  Jefferson, when President, refused to issue what is
known as the "Thanksgiving Proclamation," on the ground that the
Federal Government had no right to interfere in religious matters;
that the people owed no religious duties to the Government; that
the Government derived its powers, not from priests or gods, but
from the people, and was responsible alone to the source of its
power.  The truth is, the framers of our Constitution intended that
the Government should be secular in the broadest and best sense;
and yet there are thousands and thousands of religious people in
this country who are greatly scandalized because there is no
recognition of God in the Federal Constitution; and for several
years a great many ministers have been endeavoring to have the
Constitution amended so as to recognize the existence of God and
the divinity of Christ.  A man by the name of Pollock was once
superintendent of the mint of Philadelphia.  He was almost insane
about having God in the Constitution.  Failing in that, he got the
inscription on our money, "In God we Trust."  As our silver dollar
is now, in fact, worth only eighty-five cents, it is claimed that
the inscription means that we trust in God for the other fifteen
cents.

There is a constant effort on the part of many Christians to have
their religion in some way recognized by law.  Proclamations are
now issued calling upon the people to give thanks, and directing
attention to the fact that, while God has scourged or neglected
other nations, he has been remarkably attentive to the wants and
wishes of the United States.  Governors of States issue these
documents written in a tone of pious insincerity.  The year may or
may not have been prosperous, yet the degree of thankfulness called
for is always precisely the same.

A few years ago the Governor of Iowa issued an exceedingly rhetorical
proclamation, in which the people were requested to thank God for
the unparalleled blessings he had showered upon them.  A private
citizen, fearing that the Lord might be misled by official
correspondence, issued his proclamation, in which he recounted with
great particularity the hardships of the preceding year.  He insisted
that the weather had been of the poorest quality; that the spring
came late, and the frost early; that the people were in debt; that
the farms were mortgaged; that the merchants were bankrupt; and
that everything was in the worst possible condition.  He concluded
by sincerely hoping that the Lord would pay no attention to the
proclamation of the Governor, but would, if he had any doubt on
the subject, come down and examine the State for himself.

These proclamations have always appeared to me absurdly egotistical.
Why should God treat us any better than he does the rest of his
children?  Why should he send pestilence and famine to China, and
health and plenty to us?  Why give us corn, and Egypt cholera?
All these proclamations grow out of egotism and selfishness, of
ignorance and superstition, and are based upon the idea that God
is a capricious monster; that he loves flattery; that he can be
coaxed and cajoled.

The conclusion of the whole matter with me is this:  For truth in
courts we must depend upon the trained intelligence of judges, the
right of cross-examination, the honesty and common sense of jurors,
and upon an enlightened public opinion.  As for members of Congress,
we will trust to the wisdom and patriotism, not only of the members,
but of their constituents.  In religion we will give to all the
luxury of absolute liberty.

The alchemist did not succeed in finding any stone the touch of
which transmuted baser things to gold; and priests have not invented
yet an oath with power to force from falsehood's desperate lips
the pearl of truth.

--_Secular Review_, London, England, 1884.
 

WENDELL PHILLIPS, FITZ JOHN PORTER AND BISMARCK.

_Question_.  Are you seeking to quit public lecturing on religious
questions?

_Answer_.  As long as I live I expect now and then to say my say
against the religious bigotry and cruelty of the world.  As long
as the smallest coal is red in hell I am going to keep on.  I never
had the slightest idea of retiring.  I expect the church to do the
retiring.

_Question_.  What do you think of Wendell Phillips as an orator?

_Answer_.  He was a very great orator--one of the greatest that
the world has produced.  He rendered immense service in the cause
of freedom.  He was in the old days the thunderbolt that pierced
the shield of the Constitution.  One of the bravest soldiers that
ever fought for human rights was Wendell Phillips.

_Question_.  What do you think of the action of Congress on Fitz
John Porter?

_Answer_.  I think Congress did right.  I think they should have
taken this action long before.  There was a question of his guilt,
and he should have been given the benefit of a doubt.  They say he
could have defeated Longstreet.  There are some people, you know,
who would have it that an army could be whipped by a good general
with six mules and a blunderbuss.  But we do not regard those
people.  They know no more about it than a lady who talked to me
about Porter's case.  She argued the question of Porter's guilt
for half an hour.  I showed her where she was all wrong.  When she
found she was beaten she took refuge with "Oh, well, anyhow he had
no genius."  Well, if every man is to be shot who has no genius,
I want to go into the coffin business.

_Question_.  What, in your judgment, is necessary to be done to
insure Republican success this fall?

_Answer_.  It is only necessary for the Republican party to stand
by its principles.  We must be in favor of protecting American
labor not only, but of protecting American capital, and we must be
in favor of civil rights, and must advocate the doctrine that the
Federal Government must protect all citizens.  I am in favor of a
tariff, not simply to raise a revenue--that I regard as incidental.
The Democrats regard protection as incidental.  The two principles
should be, protection to American industry and protection to American
citizens.  So that, after all, there is but one issue--protection.
As a matter of fact, that is all a government is for--to protect.
The Republican party is stronger to-day than it was four years ago.
The Republican party stands for the progressive ideas of the American
people.  It has been said that the administration will control the
Southern delegates. I do not believe it.  This administration has
not been friendly to the Southern Republicans, and my opinion is
there will be as much division in the Southern as in the Northern
States.  I believe Blaine will be a candidate, and I do not believe
the Prohibitionists will put a ticket in the field, because they
have no hope of success.

_Question_.  What do you think generally of the revival of the
bloody shirt?  Do you think the investigations of the Republicans
of the Danville and Copiah massacres will benefit them?

_Answer_.  Well, I am in favor of the revival of that question just
as often as a citizen of the Republic is murdered on account of
his politics.  If the South is sick of that question, let it stop
persecuting men because they are Republicans.  I do not believe,
however, in simply investigating the question and then stopping
after the guilty ones are found.  I believe in indicting them,
trying them, and convicting them.  If the Government can do nothing
except investigate, we might as well stop, and admit that we have
no government.  Thousands of people think that it is almost vulgar
to take the part of the poor colored people in the South.  What
part should you take if not that of the weak?  The strong do not
need you.  And I can tell the Southern people now, that as long as
they persecute for opinion's sake they will never touch the reins
of political power in this country.

_Question_.  How do you regard the action of Bismarck in returning
the Lasker resolutions?  Was it the result of his hatred of the
Jews?

_Answer_.  Bismarck opposed a bill to do away with the disabilities
of the Jews on the ground that Prussia is a Christian nation,
founded for the purpose of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I presume that it was his hatred of the Jews that caused him to
return the resolutions.  Bismarck should have lived several centuries
ago.  He belongs to the Dark Ages.  He is a believer in the sword
and the bayonet--in brute force.  He was loved by Germany simply
because he humiliated France.  Germany gave her liberty for revenge.
It is only necessary to compare Bismarck with Gambetta to see what
a failure he really is.  Germany was victorious and took from France
the earnings of centuries; and yet Germany is to-day the least
prosperous nation in Europe.  France was prostrate, trampled into
the earth, robbed, and yet, guided by Gambetta, is to-day the most
prosperous nation in Europe.  This shows the difference between
brute force and brain.

--_The Times_, Chicago, Illinois, February 21, 1884.
 

GENERAL SUBJECTS.

_Question_.  Do you enjoy lecturing?

_Answer_.  Of course I enjoy lecturing.  It is a great pleasure to
drive the fiend of fear out of the hearts of men women and children.
It is a positive joy to put out the fires of hell.

_Question_.  Where do you meet with the bitterest opposition?

_Answer_.  I meet with the bitterest opposition where the people
are the most ignorant, where there is the least thought, where
there are the fewest books.  The old theology is becoming laughable.
Very few ministers have the impudence to preach in the old way.
They give new meanings to old words.  They subscribe to the same
creed, but preach exactly the other way.  The clergy are ashamed
to admit that they are orthodox, and they ought to be.

_Question_.  Do liberal books, such as the works of Paine and
Infidel scientists sell well?

_Answer_.  Yes, they are about the only books on serious subjects
that do sell well.  The works of Darwin, Buckle, Draper, Haeckel,
Tyndall, Humboldt and hundreds of others, are read by intelligent
people the world over.  Works of a religious character die on the
shelves.  The people want facts.  They want to know about the world,
about all forms of life.  They want the mysteries of every day
solved.  They want honest thoughts about sensible questions.  They
are tired of the follies of faith and the falsehoods of superstition.
They want a heaven here.  In a few years the old theological books
will be sold to make paper on which to print the discoveries of
science.

_Question_.  In what section of the country do you find the most
liberality?

_Answer_.  I find great freedom of thought in Boston, New York,
Chicago, San Francisco, in fact, all over what we call the North.
The West of course is liberal.  The truth is that all the intelligent
part of the country is liberal.  The railroad, the telegraph, the
daily paper, electric light, the telephone, and freedom of thought
belong together.

_Question_.  Is it true that you were once threatened with a criminal
prosecution for libel on religion?

_Answer_.  Yes, in Delaware.  Chief Justice Comegys instructed the
grand jury to indict me for blasphemy.  I have taken by revenge on
the State by leaving it in ignorance.  Delaware is several centuries
behind the times.  It is as bigoted as it is small.  Compare Kansas
City with Wilmington and you will see the difference between
liberalism and orthodoxy.

_Question_.  This is Washington's birthday.  What do you think of
General Washington?

_Answer_.  I suppose that Washington was what was called religious.
He was not very strict in his conduct.  He tried to have church
and state united in Virginia and was defeated by Jefferson.  It
should make no difference with us whether Washington was religious
or not.  Jefferson was by far the greater man.  In intellect there
was no comparison between Washington and Franklin.  I do not prove
the correctness of my ideas by names of dead people.  I depend upon
reason instead of gravestones.  One fact is worth a cemetery full
of distinguished corpses.  We ask not for the belief of somebody,
but for evidence, for facts.  The church is a beggar at the door
of respectability.  The moment a man becomes famous, the church
asks him for a certificate that the Bible is true.  It passes its
hat before generals and presidents, and kings while they are alive.
It says nothing about thinkers and real philosophers while they
live, except to slander them, but the moment they are dead it seeks
among their words for a crumb of comfort.

_Question_.  Will Liberalism ever organize in America?

_Answer_.  I hope not.  Organization means creed, and creed means
petrifaction and tyranny.  I believe in individuality.  I will not
join any society except an anti-society society.

_Question_.  Do you consider the religion of Bhagavat Purana of
the East as good as the Christian?

_Answer_.  It is far more poetic.  It has greater variety and shows
vastly more thought.  Like the Hebrew, it is poisoned with
superstition, but it has more beauty.  Nothing can be more barren
than the theology of the Jews and Christians.  One lonely God, a
heaven filled with thoughtless angels, a hell with unfortunate
souls.  Nothing can be more desolate.  The Greek mythology is
infinitely better.

_Question_.  Do you think that the marriage institution is held in
less respect by Infidels than by Christians?

_Answer_.  No; there was never a time when marriage was more believed
in than now.  Never were wives treated better and loved more; never
were children happier than now.  It is the ambition of the average
American to have a good and happy home.  The fireside was never
more popular than now.

_Question_.  What do you think of Beecher?

_Answer_.  He is a great man, but the habit of his mind and the
bent of his early education oppose his heart.  He is growing and
has been growing every day for many years.  He has given up the
idea of eternal punishment, and that of necessity destroys it all.
The Christian religion is founded upon hell.  When the foundation
crumbles the fabric falls.  Beecher was to have answered my article
in the _North American Review_, but when it appeared and he saw
it, he agreed with so much of it that he concluded that an answer
would be useless.

--_The Times_, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884.
 

REPLY TO KANSAS CITY CLERGY.

_Question_.  Will you take any notice of Mr. Magrath's challenge?

_Answer_.  I do not think it worth while to discuss with Mr. Magrath.
I do not say this in disparagement of his ability, as I do not know
the gentleman.  He may be one of the greatest of men.  I think,
however, that Mr. Magrath might better answer what I have already
said.  If he succeeds in that, then I will meet him in public
discussion.  Of course he is an eminent theologian or he would not
think of discussing these questions with anybody.  I have never
heard of him, but for all that he may be the most intelligent of
men.

_Question_.  How have the recently expressed opinions of our local
clergy impressed you?

_Answer_.  I suppose you refer to the preachers who have given
their opinion of me.  In the first place I am obliged to them for
acting as my agents.  I think Mr. Hogan has been imposed upon.
Tacitus is a poor witness--about like Josephus.  I say again that
we have not a word about Christ written by any human being who
lived in the time of Christ--not a solitary word, and Mr. Hogan
ought to know it.

The Rev. Mr. Matthews is mistaken.  If the Bible proves anything,
it proves that the world was made in six days and that Adam and
Eve were built on Saturday.  The Bible gives the age of Adam when
he died, and then gives the ages of others down to the flood, and
then from that time at least to the return from the captivity.  If
the genealogy of the Bible is true it is about six thousand years
since Adam was made, and the world is only five days older than
Adam.  It is nonsense to say that the days were long periods of
time.  If that is so, away goes the idea of Sunday.  The only reason
for keeping Sunday given in the Bible is that God made the world
in six days and rested on the seventh.  Mr. Mathews is not candid.
He knows that he cannot answer the arguments I have urged against
the Bible.  He knows that the ancient Jews were barbarians, and
that the Old Testament is a barbarous book.  He knows that it
upholds slavery and polygamy, and he probably feels ashamed of what
he is compelled to preach.

Mr. Jardine takes a very cheerful view of the subject.  He expects
the light to dawn on the unbelievers.  He speaks as though he were
the superior of all Infidels.  He claims to be a student of the
evidences of Christianity.  There are no evidences, consequently
Mr. Jardine is a student of nothing.  It is amazing how dignified
some people can get on a small capital.

Mr. Haley has sense enough to tell the ministers not to attempt to
answer me.  That is good advice.  The ministers had better keep
still.  It is the safer way.  If they try to answer what I say,
the "sheep" will see how foolish the "shepherds" are.  The best
way is for them to say, "that has been answered."

Mr. Wells agrees with Mr. Haley.  He, too, thinks that silence is
the best weapon.  I agree with him.  Let the clergy keep still;
that is the best way.  It is better to say nothing than to talk
absurdity.  I am delighted to think that at last the ministers have
concluded that they had better not answer Infidels.

Mr. Woods is fearful only for the young.  He is afraid that I will
hurt the children.  He thinks that the mother ought to stoop over
the cradle and in the ears of the babe shout, Hell!  So he thinks
in all probability that the same word ought to be repeated at the
grave as a consolation to mourners.

I am glad that Mr. Mann thinks that I am doing neither good nor
harm.  This gives me great hope.  If I do no harm, certainly I
ought not to be eternally damned.  It is very consoling to have an
orthodox minister solemnly assert that I am doing no harm.  I wish
I could say as much for him.

The truth is, all these ministers have kept back their real thoughts.
They do not tell their doubts--they know that orthodoxy is doomed
--they know that the old doctrine excites laughter and scorn.  They
know that the fires of hell are dying out; that the Bible is ceasing
to be an authority; and that the pulpit is growing feebler and
feebler every day.  Poor parsons!

_Question_.  Would the Catholicism of General Sherman's family
affect his chances for the presidency?

_Answer_.  I do not think the religion of the family should have
any weight one way or the other.  It would make no difference with
me; although I hate Catholicism with all my heart, I do not hate
Catholics.  Some people might be so prejudiced that they would not
vote for a man whose wife belongs to the Catholic Church; but such
people are too narrow to be consulted.  General Sherman says that
he wants no office.  In that he shows his good sense.  He is a
great man and a great soldier.  He has won laurels enough for one
brow.  He has the respect and admiration of the nation, and does
not need the presidency to finish his career.  He wishes to enjoy
the honors he has won and the rest he deserves.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of Matthew Arnold?

_Answer_.  He is a man of talent, well educated, a little fussy,
somewhat sentimental, but he is not a genius.  He is not creative.
He is a critic--not an originator.  He will not compare with
Emerson.

--_The Journal_, Kansas City, Missouri, February 23, 1884.
 

SWEARING AND AFFIRMING.

_Question_.  What is the difference in the parliamentary oath of
this country which saves us from such a squabble as they have had
in England over the Bradlaugh case?

_Answer_.  Our Constitution provides that a member of Congress may
swear or affirm.  The consequence is that we can have no such
controversy as they have had in England.  The framers of our
Constitution wished forever to divorce church and state.  They knew
that it made no possible difference whether a man swore or affirmed,
or whether he swore and affirmed to support the Constitution.  All
the Federal officers who went into the Rebellion had sworn or affirmed
to support the Constitution.  All that did no good.  The entire
oath business is a mistake.  I think it would be a thousand times
better to abolish all oaths in courts of justice.  The oath allows
a rascal to put on the garments of solemnity, the mask of piety,
while he tells a lie.  In other words, the oath allows the villain
to give falsehood the appearance of truth.  I think it would be
far better to let each witness tell his story and leave his evidence
to the intelligence of the jury and judge.  The trouble about an
oath is that its tendency is to put all witnesses on an equality;
the jury says, "Why, he swore to it."  Now, if the oath were
abolished, the jury would judge all testimony according to the
witness, and then the evidence of one man of good reputation would
outweigh the lies of thousands of nobodies.

It was at one time believed that there was something miraculous in
the oath, that it was a kind of thumbscrew that would torture the
truth out of a rascal, and at one time they believed that if a man
swore falsely he might be struck by lightning or paralyzed.  But
so many people have sworn to lies without having their health
impaired that the old superstition has very little weight with the
average witness.  I think it would be far better to let every man
tell his story; let him be cross-examined, let the jury find out
as much as they can of his character, of his standing among his
neighbors--then weigh his testimony in the scale of reason.  The
oath is born of superstition, and everything born of superstition
is bad.  The oath gives the lie currency; it gives it for the moment
the ring of true metal, and the ordinary average juror is imposed
upon and justice in many instances defeated.  Nothing can be more
absurd than the swearing of a man to support the Constitution.
Let him do what he likes.  If he does not support the Constitution,
the probability is that his constituents will refuse to support
him.  Every man who swears to support the Constitution swears to
support it as he understands it, and no two understand it exactly
alike.  Now, if the oath brightened a man's intellect or added to
his information or increased his patriotism or gave him a little
more honesty, it would be a good thing--but it doesn't.  And as a
consequence it is a very useless and absurd proceeding.  Nothing
amuses me more in a court than to see one calf kissing the tanned
skin of another.

--_The Courier_, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884.
 

REPLY TO A BUFFALO CRITIC.

_Question_.  What have you to say in reply to the letter in to-
day's _Times_ signed R. H. S.?

_Answer_.  I find that I am accused of "four flagrant wrongs," and
while I am not as yet suffering from the qualms of conscience, nor
do I feel called upon to confess and be forgiven, yet I have
something to say in self-defence.

As to the first objection made by your correspondent, namely, that
my doctrine deprives people of the hope that after this life is
ended they will meet their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers,
long since passed away, in the land beyond the grave, and there
enjoy their company forever, I have this to say:  If Christianity
is true we are not quite certain of meeting our relatives and
friends where we can enjoy their company forever.  If Christianity
is true most of our friends will be in hell.  The ones I love best
and whose memory I cherish will certainly be among the lost.  The
trouble about Christianity is that it is infinitely selfish.  Each
man thinks that if he can save his own little, shriveled, microscopic
soul, that is enough.  No matter what becomes of the rest.
Christianity has no consolation for a generous man.  I do not wish
to go to heaven if the ones who have given me joy are to be lost.
I would much rather go with them.  The only thing that makes life
endurable in this world is human love, and yet, according to
Christianity, that is the very thing we are not to have in the
other world.  We are to be so taken up with Jesus and the angels,
that we shall care nothing about our brothers and sisters that have
been damned.  We shall be so carried away with the music of the
harp that we shall not even hear the wail of father or mother.
Such a religion is a disgrace to human nature.

As to the second objection,--that society cannot be held together
in peace and good order without hell and a belief in eternal torment,
I would ask why an infinitely wise and good God should make people
of so poor and mean a character that society cannot be held together
without scaring them.  Is it possible that God has so made the
world that the threat of eternal punishment is necessary for the
preservation of society?

The writer of the letter also says that it is necessary to believe
that if a man commits murder here he is destined to be punished in
hell for the offence.  This is Christianity.  Yet nearly every
murderer goes directly from the gallows to God.  Nearly every
murderer takes it upon himself to lecture the assembled multitude
who have gathered to see him hanged, and invite them to meet him
in heaven.  When the rope is about his neck he feels the wings
growing.  That is the trouble with the Christian doctrine.  Every
murderer is told he may repent and go to heaven, and have the
happiness of seeing his victim in hell.  Should heaven at any time
become dull, the vein of pleasure can be re-thrilled by the sight
of his victim wriggling on the gridiron of God's justice.  Really,
Christianity leads men to sin on credit.  It sells rascality on
time and tells all the devils they can have the benefit of the
gospel bankrupt act.

The next point in the letter is that I do not preach for the benefit
of mankind, but for the money which is the price of blood.  Of
course it makes no difference whether I preach for money or not.
That is to say, it makes no difference to the preached.  The
arguments I advance are either good or bad.  If they are bad they
can easily be answered by argument.  If they are not they cannot
be answered by personalities or by ascribing to me selfish motives.
It is not a personal matter.  It is a matter of logic, of sense--
not a matter of slander, vituperation or hatred.  The writer of
the letter, R. H. S., may be an exceedingly good person, yet that
will add no weight to his or her argument.  He or she may be a very
bad person, but that would not weaken the logic of the letter, if
it had any logic to begin with.  It is not for me to say what my
motives are in what I do or say; it must be left to the judgment
of mankind.  I presume I am about as bad as most folks, and as good
as some, but my goodness or badness has nothing to do with the
question.  I may have committed every crime in the world, yet that
does not make the story of the flood reasonable, nor does it even
tend to show that the three gentlemen in the furnace were not
scorched.  I may be the best man in the world, yet that does not
go to prove that Jonah was swallowed by the whale.  Let me say
right here that if there is another world I believe that every soul
who finds the way to that shore will have an everlasting opportunity
to do right--of reforming.  My objection to Christianity is that
it is infinitely cruel, infinitely selfish, and I might add infinitely
absurd.  I deprive no one of any hope unless you call the expectation
of eternal pain a hope.

_Question_.  Have you read the Rev. Father Lambert's "Notes on
Ingersoll," and if so, what have you to say of them or in reply to
them?

_Answer_.  I have read a few pages or paragraphs of that pamphlet,
and do not feel called upon to say anything.  Mr. Lambert has the
same right to publish his ideas that I have, and the readers must
judge.  People who believe his way will probably think that he has
succeeded in answering me.  After all, he must leave the public to
decide.  I have no anxiety about the decision.  Day by day the
people are advancing, and in a little while the sacred superstitions
of to-day will be cast aside with the foolish myths and fables of
the pagan world.

As a matter of fact there can be no argument in favor of the
supernatural.  Suppose you should ask if I had read the work of
that gentleman who says that twice two are five.  I should answer
you that no gentleman can prove that twice two are five; and yet
this is exactly as easy as to prove the existence of the supernatural.
There are no arguments in favor of the supernatural.  There are
theories and fears and mistakes and prejudices and guesses, but no
arguments--plenty of faith, but no facts; plenty of divine revelation,
but no demonstration.  The supernatural, in my judgment, is a
mistake.  I believe in the natural.

--_The Times_, Buffalo, New York, May 19, 1884.
 

BLASPHEMY.*

[* "If Robert G. Ingersoll indulges in blasphemy to-night in his
lecture, as he has in other places and in this city before, he
will be arrested before he leaves the city."  So spoke Rev. Irwin
H. Torrence, General Secretary of the Pennsylvania Bible Society,
yesterday afternoon to a _Press_ reporter.  "We have consulted
counsel; the law is with us, and Ingersoll has but to do what he
has done before, to find himself in a cell.  Here is the act of
March 31, 1860:

"'If any person shall willfully, premeditatedly and despitefully
blaspheme or speak loosely and profanely of Almighty God, Christ
Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Scriptures of Truth, such person,
on conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding
one hundred dollars, and undergo an imprisonment not exceeding
three months, or either, at the discretion of the court.'"

Last evening Colonel Ingersoll sat in the dining room at Guy's
Hotel, just in from New York City.  When told of the plans of Mr.
Torrence and his friends, he laughed and said:  ]

I did not suppose that anybody was idiotic enough to want me arrested
for blasphemy.  It seems to me that an infinite Being can take care
of himself without the aid of any agent of a Bible society.  Perhaps
it is wrong for me to be here while the Methodist Conference is in
session.  Of course no one who differs from the Methodist ministers
should ever visit Philadelphia while they are here.  I most humbly
hope to be forgiven.

_Question_.  What do you think of the law of 1860?

_Answer_.  It is exceedingly foolish.  Surely, there is no need
for the Legislature of Pennsylvania to protect an infinite God,
and why should the Bible be protected by law?  The most ignorant
priest can hold Darwin up to orthodox scorn.  This talk of the Rev.
Mr. Torrence shows that my lectures are needed; that religious
people do not know what real liberty is.  I presume that the law
of 1860 is an old one re-enacted.  It is a survival of ancient
ignorance and bigotry, and no one in the Legislature thought it
worth while to fight it.  It is the same as the law against swearing,
both are dead letters and amount to nothing.  They are not enforced
and should not be.  Public opinion will regulate such matters.  If
all who take the name of God in vain were imprisoned there would
not be room in the jails to hold the ministers.  They speak of God
in the most flippant and snap-your-fingers way that can be conceived
of.  They speak to him as though he were an intimate chum, and
metaphorically slap him on the back in the most familiar way
possible.

_Question_.  Have you ever had any similar experiences before?

_Answer_.  Oh, yes--threats have been made, but I never was arrested.
When Mr. Torrence gets cool he will see that he has made a mistake.
People in Philadelphia have been in the habit of calling the citizens
of Boston bigots--but there is more real freedom of thought and
expression in Boston than in almost any other city of the world.
I think that as I am to suffer in hell forever, Mr. Torrence ought
to be satisfied and let me have a good time here.  He can amuse
himself through all eternity by seeing me in hell, and that ought
to be enough to satisfy, not only an agent, but the whole Bible
society.  I never expected any trouble in this State, and most
sincerely hope that Mr. Torrence will not trouble me and make the
city a laughing stock.

Philadelphia has no time to waste in such foolish things.  Let the
Bible take its chances with other books.  Let everybody feel that
he has the right freely to express his opinions, provided he is
decent and kind about it.  Certainly the Christians now ought to
treat Infidels as well as Penn did Indians.

Nothing could be more perfectly idiotic than in this day and
generation to prosecute any man for giving his conclusions upon
any religious subject.  Mr. Torrence would have had Huxley and
Haeckel and Tyndall arrested; would have had Humboldt and John
Stuart Mill and Harriet Martineau and George Eliot locked up in the
city jail.  Mr. Torrence is a fossil from the old red sandstone of
a mistake.  Let him rest.  To hear these people talk you would
suppose that God is some petty king, some Liliputian prince, who
was about to be dethroned, and who was nearly wild for recruits.

_Question_.  But what would you do if they should make an attempt
to arrest you?

_Answer_.  Nothing, except to defend myself in court.

--_Philadelphia Press_, May 24, 1884.
 

POLITICS AND BRITISH COLUMBIA.

_Question_.  I understand that there was some trouble in connection
with your lecture in Victoria, B. C.  What are the facts?

_Answer_.  The published accounts, as circulated by the Associated
Press, were greatly exaggerated.  The affair was simply this:  The
authorities endeavored to prevent the lecture.  They refused the
license, on the ground that the theatre was unsafe, although it
was on the ground floor, had many exits and entrances, not counting
the windows.  The theatre was changed to meet the objections of
the fire commissioner, and the authorities expressed their satisfaction
and issued the license.  Afterward further objection was raised,
and on the night of the lecture, when the building was about two-
thirds full, the police appeared and said that the lecture would
not be allowed to be delivered, because the house was unsafe.
After a good deal of talk, the policeman in authority said that
there should be another door, whereupon my friends, in a few minutes,
made another door with an ax and a saw, the crowd was admitted and
the lecture was delivered.  The audience was well-behaved, intelligent
and appreciative.  Beyond some talking in the hall, and the natural
indignation of those who had purchased tickets and were refused
admittance, there was no disturbance.  I understand that those who
opposed the lecture are now heartily ashamed of the course pursued.

_Question_.  Are you going to take any part in the campaign?

_Answer_.  It is not my intention to make any political speeches.
I have made a good many in the past, and, in my judgment, have done
my part.  I have no other interest in politics than every citizen
should have.  I want that party to triumph which, in my judgment,
represents the best interests of the country.  I have no doubt
about the issue of the election.  I believe that Mr. Blaine will
be the next President.  But there are plenty of talkers, and I
really think that I have earned a vacation.

_Question_.  What do you think Cleveland's chances are in New York?

_Answer_.  At this distance it is hard to say.  The recent action
of Tammany complicates matters somewhat.  But my opinion is that
Blaine will carry the State.  I had a letter yesterday from that
State, giving the opinion of a gentleman well informed, that Blaine
would carry New York by no less than fifty thousand majority.

_Question_.  What figure will Butler cut in the campaign?

_Answer_.  I hardly think that Butler will have many followers on
the 4th of November.  His forces will gradually go to one side or
the other.  It is only when some great principle is at stake that
thousands of men are willing to vote with a known minority.

_Question_.  But what about the Prohibitionists?

_Answer_.  They have a very large following.  They are fighting
for something they believe to be of almost infinite consequence,
and I can readily understand how a Prohibitionist is willing to be
in the minority.  It may be well enough for me to say here, that
my course politically is not determined by my likes or dislikes of
individuals.  I want to be governed by principles, not persons.
If I really thought that in this campaign a real principle was at
stake, I should take part.  The only great question now is protection,
and I am satisfied that it is in no possible danger.

_Question_.  Not even in the case of a Democratic victory?

_Answer_.  Not even in the event of a Democratic victory.  No State
in the Union is for free trade.  Every free trader has an exception.
These exceptions combined, control the tariff legislation of this
country, and if the Democrats were in power to-day, with the control
of the House and Senate and Executive, the exceptions would combine
and protect protection.  As long as the Federal Government collects
taxes or revenue on imports, just so long these revenues will be
arranged to protect home manufactures.

_Question_.  You said that if there were a great principle at stake,
you would take part in the campaign.  You think, then, that there
is no great principle involved?

_Answer_.  If it were a matter of personal liberty, I should take
part.  If the Republican party had stood by the Civil Rights Bill,
I should have taken part in the present campaign.

_Question_.  Still, I suppose we can count on you as a Republican?

_Answer_.  Certainly, I am a Republican.

--_Evening Post_, San Francisco, California, September 16, 1884.
 

INGERSOLL CATECHISED.

_Question_.  Does Christianity advance or retard civilization?

_Answer_.  If by Christianity you mean the orthodox church, then
I unhesitatingly answer that it does retard civilization, always
has retarded it, and always will.  I can imagine no man who can be
benefitted by being made a Catholic or a Presbyterian or a Baptist
or a Methodist--or, in other words, by being made an orthodox
Christian.  But by Christianity I do not mean morality, kindness,
forgiveness, justice.  Those virtues are not distinctively Christian.
They are claimed by Mohammedans and Buddhists, by Infidels and
Atheists--and practiced by some of all classes.  Christianity
consists of the miraculous, the marvelous, and the impossible.

The one thing that I most seriously object to in Christianity is
the doctrine of eternal punishment.  That doctrine subverts every
idea of justice.  It teaches the infinite absurdity that a finite
offence can be justly visited by eternal punishment.  Another
serious objection I have is, that Christianity endeavors to destroy
intellectual liberty.  Nothing is better calculated to retard
civilization than to subvert the idea of justice.  Nothing is better
calculated to retain barbarism than to deny to every human being
the right to think.  Justice and Liberty are the two wings that
bear man forward.  The church, for a thousand years, did all within
its power to prevent the expression of honest thought; and when
the church had power, there was in this world no civilization.  We
have advanced just in the proportion that Christianity has lost
power.  Those nations in which the church is still powerful are
still almost savage--Portugal, Spain, and many others I might name.
Probably no country is more completely under the control of the
religious idea than Russia.  The Czar is the direct representative
of God.  He is the head of the church, as well as of the state.
In Russia every mouth is a bastille and every tongue a convict.
This Russian pope, this representative of God, has on earth his
hell (Siberia), and he imitates the orthodox God to the extent of
his health and strength.

Everywhere man advances as the church loses power.  In my judgment,
Ireland can never succeed until it ceases to be Catholic; and there
can be no successful uprising while the confessional exists.  At
one time in New England the church had complete power.  There was
then no religious liberty.  And so we might make a tour of the
world, and find that superstition always has been, is, and forever
will be, inconsistent with human advancement.

_Question_.  Do not the evidences of design in the universe prove
a Creator?

_Answer_.  If there were any evidences of design in the universe,
certainly they would tend to prove a designer, but they would not
prove a Creator.  Design does not prove creation.  A man makes a
machine.  That does not prove that he made the material out of
which the machine is constructed.  You find the planets arranged
in accordance with what you call a plan.  That does not prove that
they were created.  It may prove that they are governed, but it
certainly does not prove that they were created.  Is it consistent
to say that a design cannot exist without a designer, but that a
designer can?  Does not a designer need a design as much as a design
needs a designer?  Does not a Creator need a Creator as much as
the thing we think has been created?  In other words, is not this
simply a circle of human ignorance?  Why not say that the universe
has existed from eternity, as well as to say that a Creator has
existed from eternity?  And do you not thus avoid at least one
absurdity by saying that the universe has existed from eternity,
instead of saying that it was created by a Creator who existed from
eternity?  Because if your Creator existed from eternity, and
created the universe, there was a time when he commenced; and back
of that, according to Shelley, is "an eternity of idleness."

Some people say that God existed from eternity, and has created
eternity.  It is impossible to conceive of an act co-equal with
eternity.  If you say that God has existed forever, and has always
acted, then you make the universe eternal, and you make the universe
as old as God; and if the universe be as old as God, he certainly
did not create it.

These questions of origin and destiny--of infinite gods--are beyond
the powers of the human mind.  They cannot be solved.  We might as
well try to travel fast enough to get beyond the horizon.  It is
like a man trying to run away from his girdle.  Consequently, I
believe in turning our attention to things of importance--to
questions that may by some possibility be solved.  It is of no
importance to me whether God exists or not.  I exist, and it is
important to me to be happy while I exist.  Therefore I had better
turn my attention to finding out the secret of happiness, instead
of trying to ascertain the secret of the universe.

I say with regard to God, I do not know; and therefore I am accused
of being arrogant and egotistic.  Religious papers say that I do
know, because Webster told me.  They use Webster as a witness to
prove the divinity of Christ.  They say that Webster was on the
God side, and therefore I ought to be.  I can hardly afford to take
Webster's ideas of another world, when his ideas about this were
so bad.  When bloodhounds were pursuing a woman through the tangled
swamps of the South--she hungry for liberty--Webster took the side
of the bloodhounds.  Such a man is no authority for me.  Bacon
denied the Copernican system of astronomy; he is an unsafe guide.
Wesley believed in witches; I cannot follow him.  No man should
quote a name instead of an argument; no man should bring forward
a person instead of a principle, unless he is willing to accept
all the ideas of that person.

_Question_.  Is not a pleasant illusion preferable to a dreary
truth--a future life being in question?

_Answer_.  I think it is.  I think that a pleasing illusion is
better then a terrible truth, so far as its immediate results are
concerned.  I would rather think the one I love living, than to
think her dead.  I would rather think that I had a large balance
in bank than that my account was overdrawn.  I would rather think
I was healthy than to know that I had a cancer.  But if we have an
illusion, let us have it pleasing.  The orthodox illusion is the
worst that can possibly be conceived.  Take hell out of that
illusion, take eternal pain away from that dream, and say that the
whole world is to be happy forever--then you might have an excuse
for calling it a pleasant illusion; but it is, in fact, a nightmare
--a perpetual horror--a cross, on which the happiness of man has
been crucified.

_Question_.  Are not religion and morals inseparable?

_Answer_.  Religion and morality have nothing in common, and yet
there is no religion except the practice of morality.  But what
you call religion is simply superstition.  Religion as it is now
taught teaches our duties toward God--our obligations to the
Infinite, and the results of a failure to discharge those obligations.
I believe that we are under no obligations to the Infinite; that
we cannot be.  All our obligations are to each other, and to sentient
beings.  "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
saved," has nothing to do with morality.  "Do unto other as ye
would that others should do unto you" has nothing to do with
believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Baptism has nothing to do with
morality.  "Pay your honest debts."  That has nothing to do with
baptism.  What is called religion is simple superstition, with
which morality has nothing to do.

The churches do not prevent people from committing natural offences,
but restrain them from committing artificial ones.  As for instance,
the Catholic Church can prevent one of its members from eating meat
on Friday, but not from whipping his wife.  The Episcopal Church
can prevent dancing, it may be, in Lent, but not slander.  The
Presbyterian can keep a man from working on Sunday, but not from
practicing deceit on Monday.  And so I might go through the churches.
They lay the greater stress upon the artificial offences.  Those
countries that are the most religious are the most immoral.  When
the world was under the control of the Catholic Church, it reached
the very pit of immorality, and nations have advanced in morals
just in proportion that they have lost Christianity.

_Question_.  It is frequently asserted that there is nothing new
in your objections against Christianity.  What is your reply to
such assertions?

_Answer_.  Of course, the editors of religious papers will say
this; Christians will say this.  In my opinion, an argument is new
until it has been answered.  An argument is absolutely fresh, and
has upon its leaves the dew of morning, until it has been refuted.
All men have experienced, it may be, in some degree, what we call
love.  Millions of men have written about it.  The subject is of
course old.  It is only the presentation that can be new.  Thousands
of men have attacked superstition.  The subject is old, but the
manner in which the facts are handled, the arguments grouped--these
may be forever new.  Millions of men have preached Christianity.
Certainly there is nothing new in the original ideas.  Nothing can
be new except the presentation, the grouping.  The ideas may be
old, but they may be clothed in new garments of passion; they may
be given additional human interest.  A man takes a fact, or an old
subject, as a sculptor takes a rock; the rock is not new.  Of this
rock he makes a statue; the statue is new.  And yet some orthodox
man might say there is nothing new about that statue:  "I know the
man that dug the rock; I know the owner of the quarry."  Substance
is eternal; forms are new.  So in the human mind certain ideas, or
in the human heart certain passions, are forever old; but genius
forever gives them new forms, new meanings; and this is the perpetual
originality of genius.

_Question_.  Do you consider that churches are injurious to the
community?

_Answer_.  In the exact proportion that churches teach falsehood;
in the exact proportion that they destroy liberty of thought, the
free action of the human mind; in the exact proportion that they
teach the doctrine of eternal pain, and convince people of its
truth--they are injurious.  In the proportion that they teach
morality and justice, and practice kindness and charity--in that
proportion they are a benefit.  Every church, therefore, is a mixed
problem--part good and part bad.  In one direction it leads toward
and sheds light; in the other direction its influence is entirely
bad.

Now, I would like to civilize the churches, so that they will be
able to do good deeds without building bad creeds.  In other words,
take out the superstitious and the miraculous, and leave the human
and the moral.

_Question_.  Why do you not respond to the occasional clergyman
who replies to your lectures?

_Answer_.  In the first place, no clergyman has ever replied to my
lectures.  In the second place, no clergyman ever will reply to my
lectures.  He does not answer my arguments--he attacks me; and the
replies that I have seen are not worth answering.  They are far
below the dignity of the question under discussion.  Most of them
are ill-mannered, as abusive as illogical, and as malicious as
weak.  I cannot reply without feeling humiliated.  I cannot use
their weapons, and my weapons they do not understand.  I attack
Christianity because it is cruel, and they account for all my
actions by putting behind them base motives.  They make it at once
a personal question.  They imagine that epithets are good enough
arguments with which to answer an Infidel.  A few years ago they
would have imprisoned me.  A few years before that they would have
burned me.  We have advanced.  Now they only slander; and I
congratulate myself on the fact that even that is not believed.
Ministers do not believe each other about each other.  The truth
has never yet been ascertained in any trial by a church.  The longer
the trial lasts, the obscurer is the truth.  They will not believe
each other, even on oath; and one of the most celebrated ministers
of this country has publicly announced that there is no use in
answering a lie started by his own church; that if he does answer
it--if he does kill it--forty more lies will come to the funeral.

In this connection we must remember that the priests of one religion
never credit the miracles of another religion.  Is this because
priests instinctively know priests?  Now, when a Christian tells
a Buddhist some of the miracles of the Testament, the Buddhist
smiles.  When a Buddhist tells a Christian the miracles performed
by Buddha, the Christian laughs.  This reminds me of an incident.
A man told a most wonderful story.  Everybody present expressed
surprise and astonishment, except one man.  He said nothing; he
did not even change countenance.  One who noticed that the story
had no effect on this man, said to him:  "You do not seem to be
astonished in the least at this marvelous tale."  The man replied,
"No; I am a liar myself."

You see, I am not trying to answer individual ministers.  I am
attacking the whole body of superstition.  I am trying to kill the
entire dog, and I do not feel like wasting any time killing fleas
on that dog.  When the dog dies, the fleas will be out of provisions,
and in that way we shall answer them all at once.

So, I do not bother myself answering religious newspapers.  In the
first place, they are not worth answering; and in the second place,
to answer would only produce a new crop of falsehoods.  You know,
the editor of a religious newspaper, as a rule, is one who has
failed in the pulpit; and you can imagine the brains necessary to
edit a religious weekly from this fact.  I have known some good
religious editors.  By some I mean one.  I do not say that there
are not others, but I do say I do not know them.  I might add,
here, that the one I did know is dead.

Since I have been in this city there have been some "replies" to
me.  They have been almost idiotic.  A Catholic priest asked me
how I had the impudence to differ with Newton.  Newton, he says,
believed in a God; and I ask this Catholic priest how he has the
impudence to differ with Newton.  Newton was a Protestant.  This
simply shows the absurdity of using men's names for arguments.
This same priest proves the existence of God by a pagan orator.
Is it possible that God's last witness died with Cicero?  If it is
necessary to believe in a God now, the witnesses ought to be on
hand now.

Another man, pretending to answer me, quotes Le Conte, a geologist;
and according to this geologist we are "getting very near to the
splendors of the great white throne."  Where is the great white
throne?  Can any one, by studying geology, find the locality of
the great white throne?  To what stratum does it belong?  In what
geologic period was the great white throne formed?  What on earth
has geology to do with the throne of God?

The truth is, there can be no reply to the argument that man should
be governed by his reason; that he should depend upon observation
and experience; that he should use the faculties he has for his
own benefit, and the benefit of his fellow-man.  There is no answer.
It is not within the power of man to substantiate the supernatural.
It is beyond the power of evidence.

_Question_.  Why do the theological seminaries find it difficult
to get students?

_Answer_.  I was told last spring, at New Haven, that the "theologs,"
as they call the young men there being fitted for the ministry,
were not regarded as intellectual by all the other students.  The
orthodox pulpit has no rewards for genius.  It has rewards only for
stupidity, for belief--not for investigation, not for thought; and
the consequence is that young men of talent avoid the pulpit.  I
think I heard the other day that of all the students at Harvard
only nine are preparing for the ministry.  The truth is, the ministry
is not regarded as an intellectual occupation.  The average church
now consists of women and children.  Men go to please their wives,
or stay at home and subscribe to please their wives; and the wives
are beginning to think, and many of them are staying at home.  Many
of them now prefer the theatre or the opera or the park or the
seashore or the forest or the companionship of their husbands and
children at home.

_Question_.  How does the religious state of California compare
with the rest of the Union?

_Answer_.  I find that sensible people everywhere are about the
same, and the proportion of Freethinkers depends on the proportion
of sensible folks.  I think that California has her full share of
sensible people.  I find everywhere the best people and the brightest
people--the people with the most heart and the best brain--all
tending toward free thought.  Of course, a man of brain cannot
believe the miracles of the Old and New Testaments.  A man of heart
cannot believe in the doctrine of eternal pain.  We have found that
other religions are like ours, with precisely the same basis, the
same idiotic miracles, the same Christ or Saviour.  It will hardly
do to say that all others like ours are false, and ours the only
true one, when others substantially like it are thousands of years
older.  We have at last found that a religion is simply an effort
on the part of man to account for what he sees, what he experiences,
what he feels, what he fears, and what he hopes.  Every savage has
his philosophy.  That is his religion and his science.

The religions of to-day are the sciences of the past; and it may
be that the sciences of to-day will be the religions of the future,
and that other sciences will be as far beyond them as the science
of to-day is beyond the religion of to-day.  As a rule, religion
is a sanctified mistake, and heresy a slandered fact.  In other
words, the human mind grows--and as it grows it abandons the old,
and the old gets its revenge by maligning the new.

--_The San Franciscan_, San Francisco, October 4, 1884.
 

BLAINE'S DEFEAT.

_Question_.  Colonel, the fact that you took no part in the late
campaign, is a subject for general comment, and knowing your former
enthusiastic advocacy and support of Blaine, the people are somewhat
surprised, and would like to know why?

_Answer_.  In the first place, it was generally supposed that Blaine
needed no help.  His friends were perfectly confident.  They counted
on a very large Catholic support.  The Irish were supposed to be
spoiling to vote for Blaine and Logan.  All the Protestant ministers
were also said to be solid for the ticket.  Under these circumstances
it was hardly prudent for me to say much.

I was for Blaine in 1876.  In 1880 I was for Garfield, and in 1884
I was for Gresham or Harlan.  I believed then and I believe now
that either one of these men could have been elected.  Blaine is
an exceedingly able man, but he made some mistakes and some very
unfortunate utterances.  I took no part in the campaign; first,
because there was no very important issue, no great principle at
stake, and second, I thought that I had done enough, and, third,
because I wanted to do something else.

_Question_.  What, in your opinion, were the causes for Blaine's
defeat?

_Answer_.  First, because of dissension in the party.  Second,
because party ties have grown weak.  Third, the Prohibition vote.
Fourth, the Delmonico dinner--too many rich men.  Fifth, the Rev.
Dr. Burchard with his Rum, Romanism and Rebellion.  Sixth, giving
too much attention to Ohio and not enough to New York.  Seventh,
the unfortunate remark of Mr. Blaine, that "the State cannot get
along without the Church."  Eighth, the weakness of the present
administration.  Ninth, the abandonment by the party of the colored
people of the South.  Tenth, the feeling against monopolies, and
not least, a general desire for a change.

_Question_.  What, in your opinion, will be the result of Cleveland's
election and administration upon the general political and business
interests of the country?

_Answer_.  The business interests will take care of themselves.
A dollar has the instinct of self-preservation largely developed.
The tariff will take care of itself.  No State is absolutely for
free trade.  In each State there is an exception.  The exceptions
will combine, as they always have.  Michigan will help Pennsylvania
take care of iron, if Pennsylvania will help Michigan take care of
salt and lumber.  Louisiana will help Pennsylvania and Michigan if
they help her take care of sugar.  Colorado, California and Ohio
will help the other States if they will help them about wool--and
so I might make a tour of the States, ending with Vermont and maple
sugar.  I do not expect that Cleveland will do any great harm.
The Democrats want to stay in power, and that desire will give
security for good behavior.

_Question_.  Will he listen to or grant any demands made of him by
the alleged Independent Republicans of New York, either in his
appointments or policies?

_Answer_.  Of this I know nothing.  The Independents--from what I
know of them--will be too modest to claim credit or to ask office.
They were actuated by pure principle.  They did what they did to
purify the party, so that they could stay in it.  Now that it has
been purified they will remain, and hate the Democratic party as
badly as ever.  I hardly think that Cleveland would insult their
motives by offering loaves and fishes.  All they desire is the
approval of their own consciences.

--_The Commonwealth_, Topeka, Kansas, November 21, 1884.
 

BLAINE'S DEFEAT.

_Question_.  How do you account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine?

_Answer_.  How do I account for the defeat of Mr. Blaine?  I will
answer:  St. John, the Independents, Burchard, Butler and Cleveland
did it.  The truth is that during the war a majority of the people,
counting those in the South, were opposed to putting down the
Rebellion by force.  It is also true that when the Proclamation of
Emancipation was issued a majority of the people, counting the
whole country, were opposed to it, and it is also true that when
the colored people were made citizens a majority of the people,
counting the whole country, were opposed to it.

Now, while, in my judgment, an overwhelming majority of the whole
people have honestly acquiesced in the result of the war, and are
now perfectly loyal to the Union, and have also acquiesced in the
abolition of slavery, I doubt very much whether they are really in
favor of giving the colored man the right to vote.  Of course they
have not the power now to take that right away, but they feel
anything but kindly toward the party that gave the colored man that
right.  That is the only result of the war that is not fully accepted
by the South and by many Democrats of the North.

Another thing, the Republican party was divided--divided too by
personal hatreds.  The party was greatly injured by the decision
of the Supreme Court in which the Civil Rights Bill was held void.
Now, a great many men who kept with the Republican party, did so
because they believed that that party would protect the colored
man in the South, but as soon as the Court decided that all the
laws passed were unconstitutional, these men felt free to vote for
the other side, feeling that it would make no difference.  They
reasoned this way:  If the Republican party cannot defend the
colored people, why make a pretence that excites hatred on one side
and disarms the other?  If the colored people have to depend upon
the State for protection, and the Federal Government cannot interfere,
why say any more about it?

I think that these men made a mistake and our party made a mistake
in accepting without protest a decision that was far worse than
the one delivered in the case of Dred Scott.  By accepting this
decision the most important issue was abandoned.  The Republican
party must take the old ground that it is the duty of the Federal
Government to protect the citizens, and that it cannot simply leave
that duty to the State.  It must see to it that the State performs
that duty.

_Question_.  Have you seen the published report that Dorsey claims
to have paid you one hundred thousand dollars for your services in
the Star Route Cases?

_Answer_.  I have seen the report, but Dorsey never said anything
like that.

_Question_.  Is there no truth in the statement, then?

_Answer_.  Well, Dorsey never said anything of the kind.

_Question_.  Then you do not deny that you received such an enormous
fee?

_Answer_.  All I say is that Dorsey did not say I did.*

--_The Commercial_, Louisville, Kentucky, October 24, 1884.

[* Col. Ingersoll has been so criticised and maligned for defending
Mr. Dorsey in the Star Route cases, and so frequently charged with
having received an enormous fee, that I think it but simple justice
to his memory to say that he received no such fee, and that the
ridiculously small sums he did receive were much more than offset
by the amount he had to pay as indorser of Mr. Dorsey's paper.
--C. F. FARRELL.]
 

PLAGIARISM AND POLITICS.

_Question_.  What have you to say about the charges published in
this morning's _Herald_ to the effect that you copied your lecture
about "Mistakes of Moses" from a chapter bearing the same title in
a book called Hittell's "Evidences against Christianity"?

_Answer_.  All I have to say is that the charge is utterly false.
I will give a thousand dollars reward to any one who will furnish
a book published before my lecture, in which that lecture can be
found.  It is wonderful how malicious the people are who love their
enemies.  This charge is wholly false, as all others of like nature
are.  I do not have to copy the writings of others.  The Christians
do not seem to see that they are constantly complimenting me by
saying that what I write is so good that I must have stolen it.
Poor old orthodoxy!

_Question_.  What is your opinion of the incoming administration,
and how will it affect the country?

_Answer_.  I feel disposed to give Cleveland a chance.  If he does
the fair thing, then it is the duty of all good citizens to say
so.  I do not expect to see the whole country go to destruction
because the Democratic party is in power.  Neither do I believe
that business is going to suffer on that account.  The times are
hard, and I fear will be much harder, but they would have been
substantially the same if Blaine had been elected.  I wanted the
Republican party to succeed and fully expected to see Mr. Blaine
President, but I believe in making the best of what has happened.
I want no office, I want good government--wise legislation.  I
believe in protection, but I want the present tariff reformed and
I hope the Democrats will be wise enough to do so.

_Question_.  How will the Democratic victory affect the colored
people in the South?

_Answer_.  Certainly their condition will not be worse than it has
been.  The Supreme Court decided that the Civil Rights Bill was
unconstitutional and that the Federal Government cannot interfere.
That was a bad decision and our party made a mistake in not protesting
against it.  I believe it to be the duty of the Federal Government
to protect all its citizens, at home as well as abroad.  My hope
is that there will be a division in the Democratic party.  That
party has something now to divide.  At last it has a bone, and
probably the fighting will commence.  I hope that some new issue
will take color out of politics, something about which both white
and colored may divide.  Of course nothing would please me better
than to see the Democratic party become great and grand enough to
give the colored people their rights.

_Question_.  Why did you not take part in the campaign?

_Answer_.  Well, I was afraid of frightening the preachers away.
I might have done good by scaring one, but I did not know Burchard
until it was too late.  Seriously, I did not think that I was
needed.  I supposed that Blaine had a walkover, that he was certain
to carry New York.  I had business of my own to attend to and did
not want to interfere with the campaign.

_Question_.  What do you think of the policy of nominating Blaine
in 1888, as has been proposed?

_Answer_.  I think it too early to say what will be done in 1888.
Parties do not exist for one man.  Parties have certain ends in
view and they choose men as instruments to accomplish these ends.
Parties belong to principles, not persons.  No party can afford to
follow anybody.  If in 1888 Mr. Blaine should appear to be the best
man for the party then he will be nominated, otherwise not.  I know
nothing about any intention to nominate him again and have no idea
whether he has that ambition.  The Whig party was intensely loyal
to Henry Clay and forgot the needs of the country, and allowed the
Democrats to succeed with almost unknown men.  Parties should not
belong to persons, but persons should belong to parties.  Let us
not be too previous--let us wait.

_Question_.  What do you think of the course pursued by the Rev.
Drs. Ball and Burchard?

_Answer_.  In politics the preacher is somewhat dangerous.  He has
a standard of his own; he has queer ideas of evidence, great reliance
on hearsay; he is apt to believe things against candidates, just
because he wants to.  The preacher thinks that all who differ with
him are instigated by the Devil--that their intentions are evil,
and that when they behave themselves they are simply covering the
poison with sugar.  It would have been far better for the country
if Mr. Ball had kept still.  I do not pretend to say that his
intentions were not good.  He likely thought it his duty to lift
a warning voice, to bawl aloud and to spare not, but I think he
made a mistake, and he now probably thinks so himself.  Mr. Burchard
was bound to say a smart thing.  It sounded well, and he allowed
his ears to run away with his judgment.  As a matter of fact, there
is no connection between rum and Romanism.  Catholic countries do
not use as much alcohol as Protestant.  England has far more
drunkards than Spain.  Scotland can discount Italy or Portugal in
good, square drinking.  So there is no connection between Romanism
and rebellion.  Ten times as many Methodists and twenty times as
many Baptists went into the Rebellion as Catholics.  Thousands of
Catholics fought as bravely as Protestants for the preservation of
the Union.  No doubt Mr. Burchard intended well.  He thought he
was giving Blaine a battle-cry that would send consternation into
the hearts of the opposition.  My opinion is that in the next
campaign the preachers will not be called to the front.  Of course
they have the same right to express their views that other people
have, but other people have the right to avoid the responsibility
of appearing to agree with them.  I think though that it is about
time to let up on Burchard.  He has already unloaded on the Lord.

_Question_.  Do you think Cleveland will put any Southern men in
his Cabinet?

_Answer_.  I do.  Nothing could be in worse taste than to ignore
the section that gave him three-fourths of his vote.  The people
have put the Democratic party in power.  They intended to do what
they did, and why should the South not be recognized?  Garland
would make a good Attorney-General; Lamar has the ability to fill
any position in the Cabinet.  I could name several others well
qualified, and I suppose that two or three Southern men will be in
the Cabinet.  If they are good enough to elect a President they
are good enough to be selected by a President.

_Question_.  What do you think of Mr. Conkling's course?

_Answer_.  Mr. Conkling certainly had the right to keep still.  He
was under no obligation to the party.  The Republican papers have
not tried to secure his services.  He has been very generally and
liberally denounced ever since his quarrel with Mr. Garfield, and
it is only natural to resent what a man feels to be an injustice.
I suppose he has done what he honestly thought was, under the
circumstances, his duty.  I believe him to be a man of stainless
integrity, and he certainly has as much independence of character
as one man can carry.  It is time to put the party whip away.
People can be driven from, but not to, the Republican party.  If we
expect to win in 1888 we must welcome recruits.

--_The Plain Dealer_, Cleveland, Ohio, Dec. 11, 1884.
 

RELIGIOUS PREJUDICE.

_Question_.  Will a time ever come when political campaigns will
be conducted independently of religious prejudice?

_Answer_.  As long as men are prejudiced, they will probably be
religious, and certainly as long as they are religious they will
be prejudiced, and every religionist who imagines the next world
infinitely more important than this, and who imagines that he gets
his orders from God instead of from his own reason, or from his
fellow-citizens, and who thinks that he should do something for
the glory of God instead of for the benefit of his fellow-citizens
--just as long as they believe these things, just so long their
prejudices will control their votes.  Every good, ignorant, orthodox
Christian places his Bible above laws and constitutions.  Every
good, sincere and ignorant Catholic puts pope above king and
president, as well as above the legally expressed will of a majority
of his countrymen.  Every Christian believes God to be the source
of all authority.  I believe that the authority to govern comes
from the consent of the governed.  Man is the source of power, and
to protect and increase human happiness should be the object of
government.  I think that religious prejudices are growing weaker
because religious belief is growing weaker.  And these prejudices
--should men ever become really civilized--will finally fade away.
I think that a Presbyterian, to-day, has no more prejudice against
an Atheist than he has against a Catholic.  A Catholic does not
dislike an Infidel any more than he does a Presbyterian, and I
believe, to-day, that most of the Presbyterians would rather see
and Atheist President than a pronounced Catholic.

_Question_.  Is Agnosticism gaining ground in the United States?

_Answer_.  Of course, there are thousands and thousands of men who
have now advanced intellectually to the point of perceiving the
limit of human knowledge.  In other words, at last they are beginning
to know enough to know what can and cannot be known.  Sensible men
know that nobody knows whether an infinite God exists or not.
Sensible men know that an infinite personality cannot, by human
testimony, be established.  Sensible men are giving up trying to
answer the questions of origin and destiny, and are paying more
attention to what happens between these questions--that is to say,
to this world.  Infidelity increases as knowledge increases, as
fear dies, and as the brain develops.  After all, it is a question
of intelligence.  Only cunning performs a miracle, only ignorance
believes it.

_Question_.  Do you think that evolution and revealed religion are
compatible--that is to say, can a man be an evolutionist and a
Christian?

_Answer_.  Evolution and Christianity may be compatible, provided
you take the ground that Christianity is only one of the links in
the chain, one of the phases of civilization.  But if you mean by
Christianity what is generally understood, of course that and
evolution are absolutely incompatible.  Christianity pretends to
be not only the truth, but, so far as religion is concerned, the
whole truth.  Christianity pretends to give a history of religion
and a prophecy of destiny.  As a philosophy, it is an absolute
failure.  As a history, it is false.  There is no possible way by
which Darwin and Moses can be harmonized.  There is an inexpressible
conflict between Christianity and Science, and both cannot long
inhabit the same brain.  You cannot harmonize evolution and the
atonement.  The survival of the fittest does away with original sin.

_Question_.  From your knowledge of the religious tendency in the
United States, how long will orthodox religion be popular?

_Answer_.  I do not think that orthodox religion is popular to-day.
The ministers dare not preach the creed in all its naked deformity
and horror.  They are endeavoring with the vines of sentiment to
cover up the caves and dens in which crawl the serpents of their
creed.  Very few ministers care now to speak of eternal pain.  They
leave out the lake of fire and brimstone.  They are not fond of
putting in the lips of Christ the loving words, "Depart from me,
ye cursed."  The miracles are avoided.  In short, what is known as
orthodoxy is already unpopular.  Most ministers are endeavoring to
harmonize what they are pleased to call science and Christianity,
and nothing is now so welcome to the average Christian as some work
tending to show that, after all, Joshua was an astronomer.

_Question_.  What section of the United States, East, West, North,
or South, is the most advanced in liberal religious ideas?

_Answer_.  That section of the country in which there is the most
intelligence is the most liberal.  That section of the country
where there is the most ignorance is the most prejudiced.  The
least brain is the most orthodox.  There possibly is no more
progressive city in the world, no more liberal, than Boston.
Chicago is full of liberal people.  So is San Francisco.  The brain
of New York is liberal.  Every town, every city, is liberal in the
precise proportion that it is intelligent.

_Question_.  Will the religion of humanity be the religion of the
future?

_Answer_.  Yes; it is the only religion now.  All other is
superstition.  What they call religion rests upon a supposed relation
between man and God.  In what they call religion man is asked to
do something for God.  As God wants nothing, and can by no possibility
accept anything, such a religion is simply superstition.  Humanity
is the only possible religion.  Whoever imagines that he can do
anything for God is mistaken.  Whoever imagines that he can add to
his happiness in the next world by being useless in this, is also
mistaken.  And whoever thinks that any God cares how he cuts his
hair or his clothes, or what he eats, or whether he fasts, or rings
a bell, or puts holy water on his breast, or counts beads, or shuts
his eyes and says words to the clouds, is laboring under a great
mistake.

_Question_.  A man in the Swaim Court Martial case was excluded as
a witness because he was an Atheist.  Do you think the law in the
next decade will permit the affirmative oath?

_Answer_.  If belief affected your eyes, your ears, any of your
senses, or your memory, then, of course, no man ought to be a
witness who had not the proper belief.  But unless it can be shown
that Atheism interferes with the sight, the hearing, or the memory,
why should justice shut the door to truth?

In most of the States of this Union I could not give testimony.
Should a man be murdered before my eyes I could not tell a jury
who did it.  Christianity endeavors to make an honest man an outlaw.
Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human nature that
it does not believe a man can tell the truth unless frightened by
a belief in God.  No lower opinion of the human race has ever been
expressed.

_Question_.  Do you think that bigotry would persecute now for
religious opinion's sake, if it were not for the law and the press?

_Answer_.  I think that the church would persecute to-day if it
had the power, just as it persecuted in the past.  We are indebted
for nearly all our religious liberty to the hypocrisy of the church.
The church does not believe.  Some in the church do, and if they
had the power, they would torture and burn as of yore.  Give the
Presbyterian Church the power, and it would not allow an Infidel
to live.  Give the Methodist Church the power and the result would
be the same.  Give the Catholic Church the power--just the same.
No church in the United States would be willing that any other
church should have the power.  The only men who are to be angels
in the next world are the ones who cannot be trusted with human
liberty in this; and the man who are destined to live forever in
hell are the only gentlemen with whom human liberty is safe.  Why
should Christians refuse to persecute in this world, when their
God is going to in the next?

--_Mail and Express_, New York, January 12, 1885.
 

CLEVELAND AND HIS CABINET.

_Question_.  What do you think of Mr. Cleveland's Cabinet?

_Answer_.  It is a very good Cabinet.  Some objections have been
made to Mr. Lamar, but I think he is one of the very best.  He is
a man of ability, of unquestioned integrity, and is well informed
on national affairs.  Ever since he delivered his eulogy on the
life and services of Sumner, I have had great respect for Mr. Lamar.
He is far beyond most of his constituents, and has done much to
destroy the provincial prejudices of Mississippi.  He will without
doubt make an excellent Secretary of the Interior.  The South has
no better representative man, and I believe his appointment will,
in a little while, be satisfactory to the whole country.  Bayard
stands high in his party, and will certainly do as well as his
immediate predecessor.  Nothing could be better than the change in
the Department of Justice.  Garland is an able lawyer, has been an
influential Senator and will, in my judgment, make an excellent
Attorney-General.  The rest of the Cabinet I know little about,
but from what I hear I believe they are men of ability and that
they will discharge their duties well.  Mr. Vilas has a great
reputation in Wisconsin, and is one of the best and most forcible
speakers in the country.

_Question_.  Will Mr. Cleveland, in your opinion, carry out the
civil service reform he professes to favor?

_Answer_.  I have no reason to suspect even that he will not.  He
has promised to execute the law, and the promise is in words that
do not admit of two interpretations.  Of course he is sincere.  He
knows that this course will save him a world of trouble, and he
knows that it makes no difference about the politics of a copyist.
All the offices of importance will in all probability be filled by
Democrats.  The President will not put himself in the power of his
opponents.  If he is to be held responsible for the administration
he must be permitted to choose his own assistants.  This is too
plain to talk about.  Let us give Mr. Cleveland a fair show--and
let us expect success instead of failure.  I admit that many
Presidents have violated their promises.  There seems to be something
in the atmosphere of Washington that breeds promise and prevents
performance.  I suppose it is some kind of political malarial
microbe.  I hope that some political Pasteur will, one of these
days, discover the real disease so that candidates can be vaccinated
during the campaign.  Until them, presidential promises will be
liable to a discount.

_Question_.  Is the Republican party dead?

_Answer_.  My belief is that the next President will be a Republican,
and that both houses will be Republican in 1889.  Mr. Blaine was
defeated by an accident--by the slip of another man's tongue.  But
it matters little what party is in power if the Government is
administered upon correct principles, and if the Democracy adopt
the views of the Republicans and carry out Republican measures, it
may be that they can keep in power--otherwise--otherwise.  If the
Democrats carry out real Democratic measures, then their defeat is
certain.

_Question_.  Do you think that the era of good feeling between the
North and the South has set in with the appointment of ex-rebels
to the Cabinet?

_Answer_.  The war is over.  The South failed.  The Nation succeeded.
We should stop talking about South and North.  We are one people,
and whether we agree or disagree one destiny awaits us.  We cannot
divide.  We must live together.  We must trust each other.  Confidence
begets confidence.  The whole country was responsible for slavery.
Slavery was rebellion.  Slavery is dead--so is rebellion.  Liberty
has united the country and there is more real union, national
sentiment to-day, North and South, than ever before.

_Question_.  It is hinted that Mr. Tilden is really the power behind
the throne.  Do you think so?

_Answer_.  I guess nobody has taken the hint.  Of course Mr. Tilden
has retired from politics.  The probability is that many Democrats
ask his advice, and some rely on his judgment.  He is regarded as
a piece of ancient wisdom--a phenomenal persistence of the Jeffersonian
type--the connecting link with the framers, founders and fathers.
The power behind the throne is the power that the present occupant
supposes will determine who the next occupant shall be.

_Question_.  With the introduction of the Democracy into power,
what radical changes will take place in the Government, and what
will be the result?

_Answer_.  If the President carries out his inaugural promises
there will be no radical changes, and if he does not there will be
a very radical change at the next presidential election.  The
inaugural is a very good Republican document.  There is nothing in
it calculated to excite alarm.  There is no dangerous policy
suggested--no conceited vagaries--nothing but a plain statement of
the situation and the duty of the Chief Magistrate as understood
by the President.  I think that the inaugural surprised the Democrats
and the Republicans both, and if the President carries out the
program he has laid down he will surprise and pacify a large majority
of the American people.

--_Mail and Express_, New York, March 10, 1885.
 

RELIGION, PROHIBITION, AND GEN. GRANT.

_Question_.  What do you think of prohibition, and what do you
think of its success in this State?

_Answer_.  Few people understand the restraining influence of
liberty.  Moderation walks hand in hand with freedom.  I do not
mean the freedom springing from the sudden rupture of restraint.
That kind of freedom usually rushes to extremes.

People must be educated to take care of themselves, and this
education must commence in infancy.  Self-restraint is the only
kind that can always be depended upon.  Of course intemperance is
a great evil.  It causes immense suffering--clothes wives and
children in rags, and is accountable for many crimes, particularly
those of violence.  Laws to be of value must be honestly enforced.
Laws that sleep had better be dead.  Laws to be enforced must be
honestly approved of and believed in by a large majority of the
people.  Unpopular laws make hypocrites, perjurers and official
shirkers of duty.  And if to the violation of such laws severe
penalties attach, they are rarely enforced.  Laws that create
artificial crimes are the hardest to carry into effect.  You can
never convince a majority of people that it is as bad to import
goods without paying the legal duty as to commit larceny.  Neither
can you convince a majority of people that it is a crime or sin,
or even a mistake, to drink a glass of wine or beer.  Thousands and
thousands of people in this State honestly believe that prohibition
is an interference with their natural rights, and they feel justified
in resorting to almost any means to defeat the law.

In this way people become somewhat demoralized.  It is unfortunate
to pass laws that remain unenforced on account of their unpopularity.
People who would on most subjects swear to the truth do not hesitate
to testify falsely on a prohibition trial.  In addition to this,
every known device is resorted to, to sell in spite of the law,
and when some want to sell and a great many want to buy, considerable
business will be done, while there are fewer saloons and less liquor
sold in them.  The liquor is poorer and the price is higher.  The
consumer has to pay for the extra risk.  More liquor finds its way
to homes, more men buy by the bottle and gallon.  In old times
nearly everybody kept a little rum or whiskey on the sideboard.
The great Washingtonian temperance movement drove liquor out of
the home and increased the taverns and saloons.  Now we are driving
liquor back to the homes.  In my opinion there is a vast difference
between distilled spirits and the lighter drinks, such as wine and
beer.  Wine is a fireside and whiskey a conflagration.  These
lighter drinks are not unhealthful and do not, as I believe, create
a craving for stronger beverages.  You will, I think, find it almost
impossible to enforce the present law against wine and beer.  I
was told yesterday that there are some sixty places in Cedar Rapids
where whiskey is sold.  It takes about as much ceremony to get a
drink as it does to join the Masons, but they seem to like the
ceremony.  People seem to take delight in outwitting the State when
it does not involve the commission of any natural offence, and when
about to be caught, may not hesitate to swear falsely to the extent
of "don't remember," or "can't say positively," or "can't swear
whether it was whiskey or not."

One great trouble in Iowa is that the politicians, or many of them
who openly advocate prohibition, are really opposed to it.  They
want to keep the German vote, and they do not want to lose native
Republicans.  They feel a "divided duty" to ride both horses.  This
causes the contrast between their conversation and their speeches.
A few years ago I took dinner with a gentleman who had been elected
Governor of one of our States on the Prohibition ticket.  We had
four kinds of wine during the meal, and a pony of brandy at the
end.  Prohibition will never be a success until it prohibits the
Prohibitionists.  And yet I most sincerely hope and believe that
the time will come when drunkenness shall have perished from the
earth.  Let us cultivate the love of home.  Let husbands and wives
and children be companions.  Let them seek amusements together.
If it is a good place for father to go, it is a good place for
mother and the children.  I believe that a home can be made more
attractive than a saloon.  Let the boys and girls amuse themselves
at home--play games, study music, read interesting books, and let
the parents be their playfellows.  The best temperance lecture, in
the fewest words, you will find in Victor Hugo's great novel "Les
Miserables."  The grave digger is asked to take a drink.  He refuses
and gives this reason:  "The hunger of my family is the enemy of
my thirst."

_Question_.  Many people wonder why you are out of politics.  Will
you give your reasons?

_Answer_.  A few years ago great questions had to be settled.  The
life of the nation was at stake.  Later the liberty of millions of
slaves depended upon the action of the Government.  Afterward
reconstruction and the rights of citizens pressed themselves upon
the people for solution.  And last, the preservation of national
honor and credit.  These questions did not enter into the last
campaign.  They had all been settled, and properly settled, with
the one exception of the duty of the nation to protect the colored
citizens.  The Supreme Court settled that, at least for a time,
and settled it wrong.  But the Republican party submitted to the
civil rights decision, and so, as between the great parties, that
question did not arise.  This left only two questions--protection
and office.  But as a matter of fact, all Republicans were not for
our present system of protection, and all Democrats were not against
it.  On that question each party was and is divided.  On the other
question--office--both parties were and are in perfect harmony.
Nothing remains now for the Democrats to do except to give a
"working" definition of "offensive partisanship."

_Question_.  Do you think that the American people are seeking
after truth, or do they want to be amused?

_Answer_.  We have all kinds.  Thousands are earnestly seeking for
the truth.  They are looking over the old creeds, they are studying
the Bible for themselves, they have the candor born of courage,
they are depending upon themselves instead of on the clergy.  They
have found out that the clergy do not know; that their sources of
information are not reliable; that, like the politicians, many
ministers preach one way and talk another.  The doctrine of eternal
pain has driven millions from the church.  People with good hearts
cannot get consolation out of that cruel lie.  The ministers
themselves are getting ashamed to call that doctrine "the tidings
of great joy."  The American people are a serious people.  They
want to know the truth.  They fell that whatever the truth may be
they have the courage to hear it.  The American people also have
a sense of humor.  They like to see old absurdities punctured and
solemn stupidity held up to laughter.  They are, on the average,
the most intelligent people on the earth.  They can see the point.
Their wit is sharp, quick and logical.  Nothing amuses them more
that to see the mask pulled from the face of sham.  The average
American is generous, intelligent, level-headed, manly, and good-
natured.

_Question_.  What, in your judgment, is the source of the greatest
trouble among men?

_Answer_.  Superstition.  That has caused more agony, more tears,
persecution and real misery than all other causes combined.  The
other name for superstition is ignorance.  When men learn that all
sin is a mistake, that all dishonesty is a blunder, that even
intelligent selfishness will protect the rights of others, there
will be vastly more happiness in this world.  Shakespeare says that
"There is no darkness but ignorance."  Sometime man will learn that
when he steals from another, he robs himself--that the way to be
happy is to make others so, and that it is far better to assist
his fellow-man than to fast, say prayers, count beads or build
temples to the Unknown.  Some people tell us that selfishness is
the only sin, but selfishness grows in the soil of ignorance.
After all, education is the great lever, and the only one capable
of raising mankind.  People ignorant of their own rights are ignorant
of the rights of others.  Every tyrant is the slave of ignorance.

_Question_.  How soon do you think we would have the millennium if
every person attended strictly to his own business?

_Answer_.  Now, if every person were intelligent enough to know
his own business--to know just where his rights ended and the rights
of others commenced, and then had the wisdom and honesty to act
accordingly, we should have a very happy world.  Most people like
to control the conduct of others.  They love to write rules, and
pass laws for the benefit of their neighbors, and the neighbors
are pretty busy at the same business.  People, as a rule, think
that they know the business of other people better than they do
their own.  A man watching others play checkers or chess always
thinks he sees better moves than the players make.  When all people
attend to their own business they will know that a part of their
own business is to increase the happiness of others.

_Question_.  What is causing the development of this country?

_Answer_.  Education, the free exchange of ideas, inventions by
which the forces of nature become our servants, intellectual
hospitality, a willingness to hear the other side, the richness of
our soil, the extent of our territory, the diversity of climate
and production, our system of government, the free discussion of
political questions, our social freedom, and above all, the fact
that labor is honorable.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of the religious tendency of the
people of this country?

_Answer_.  Using the word religion in its highest and best sense,
the people are becoming more religious.  We are far more religious
--using the word in its best sense--than when we believed in human
slavery, but we are not as orthodox as we were then.  We have more
principle and less piety.  We care more for the right and less for
the creed.  The old orthodox dogmas are mouldy.  You will find moss
on their backs.  They are only brought out when a new candidate
for the ministry is to be examined.  Only a little while ago in
New York a candidate for the Presbyterian pulpit was examined and
the following is a part of the examination:

_Question_.  "Do you believe in eternal punishment, as set forth
in the confession of faith?"

_Answer_.  (With some hesitation) "Yes, I do."

_Question_.  "Have you preached on that subject lately?"

_Answer_.  "No.  I prepared a sermon on hell, in which I took the
ground that the punishment of the wicked will be endless, and have
it with me."

_Question_.  "Did you deliver it?"

_Answer_.  "No.  I thought that my congregation would not care to
hear it.  The doctrine is rather unpopular where I have been
preaching, and I was afraid I might do harm, so I have not delivered
it yet."

_Question_.  "But you believe in eternal damnation, do you not?"

_Answer_.  "O yes, with all my heart."

He was admitted, and the admission proves the dishonesty of the
examiners and the examined.  The new version of the Old and New
Testaments has done much to weaken confidence in the doctrine of
inspiration.  It has occurred to a good many that if God took the
pains to inspire men to write the Bible, he ought to have inspired
others to translate it correctly.  The general tendency today is
toward science, toward naturalism, toward what is called Infidelity,
but is in fact fidelity.  Men are in a transition state, and the
people, on the average, have more real good, sound sense to-day
than ever before.  The church is losing its power for evil.  The
old chains are wearing out, and new ones are not being made.  The
tendency is toward intellectual freedom, and that means the final
destruction of the orthodox bastille.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of General Grant as he stands
before the people to-day?

_Answer_.  I have always regarded General Grant as the greatest
soldier this continent has produced.  He is to-day the most
distinguished son of the Republic.  The people have the greatest
confidence in his ability, his patriotism and his integrity.  The
financial disaster impoverished General Grant, but he did not stain
the reputation of the grand soldier who led to many victories the
greatest army that ever fought for the liberties of man.

--_Iowa State Register_, May 23, 1885.
 

HELL OR SHEOL AND OTHER SUBJECTS.

_Question_.  Colonel, have you read the revised Testament?

_Answer_.  Yes, but I don't believe the work has been fairly done.
The clergy are not going to scrape the butter off their own bread.
The clergy are offensive partisans, and those of each denomination
will interpret the Scriptures their way.  No Baptist minister would
countenance a "Revision" that favored sprinkling, and no Catholic
priest would admit that any version would be correct that destroyed
the dogma of the "real presence."  So I might go through all the
denominations.

_Question_.  Why was the word sheol introduced in place of hell,
and how do you like the substitute?

_Answer_.  The civilized world has outgrown the vulgar and brutal
hell of their fathers and founders of the churches.  The clergy
are ashamed to preach about sulphurous flames and undying worms.
The imagination of the world has been developed, the heart has
grown tender, and the old dogma of eternal pain shocks all civilized
people.  It is becoming disgraceful either to preach or believe in
such a beastly lie.  The clergy are beginning to think that it is
hardly manly to frighten children with a detected falsehood.  Sheol
is a great relief.  It is not so hot as the old place.  The nights
are comfortable, and the society is quite refined.  The worms are
dead, and the air reasonably free from noxious vapors.  It is a
much worse word to hold a revival with, but much better for every
day use.  It will hardly take the place of the old word when people
step on tacks, put up stoves, or sit on pins; but for use at church
fairs and mite societies it will do about as well.  We do not need
revision; excision is what we want.  The barbarism should be taken
out of the Bible.  Passages upholding polygamy, wars of extermination,
slavery, and religious persecution should not be attributed to a
perfect God.  The good that is in the Bible will be saved for man,
and man will be saved from the evil that is in that book.  Why
should we worship in God what we detest in man?

_Question_.  Do you think the use of the word sheol will make any
difference to the preachers?

_Answer_.  Of course it will make no difference with Talmage.  He
will make sheol just as hot and smoky and uncomfortable as hell,
but the congregations will laugh instead of tremble.  The old
shudder has gone.  Beecher had demolished hell before sheol was
adopted.  According to his doctrine of evolution hell has been
slowly growing cool.  The cindered souls do not even perspire.
Sheol is nothing to Mr. Beecher but a new name for an old mistake.
As for the effect it will have on Heber Newton, I cannot tell,
neither can he, until he asks his bishop.  There are people who
believe in witches and madstones and fiat money, and centuries
hence it may be that people will exist who will believe as firmly
in hell as Dr. Shedd does now.

_Question_.  What about Beecher's sermons on "Evolution"?

_Answer_.  Beecher's sermons on "Evolution" will do good.  Millions
of people believe that Mr. Beecher knows at least as much as the
other preachers, and if he regards the atonement as a dogma with
a mistake for a foundation, they may conclude that the whole system
is a mistake.  But whether Mr. Beecher is mistaken or not, people
know that honesty is a good thing, that gratitude is a virtue, that
industry supports the world, and that whatever they believe about
religion they are bound by every conceivable obligation to be just
and generous.  Mr. Beecher can no more succeed in reconciling
science and religion, than he could in convincing the world that
triangles and circles are exactly the same.  There is the same
relation between science and religion that there is between astronomy
and astrology, between alchemy and chemistry, between orthodoxy
and common sense.

_Question_.  Have you read Miss Cleveland's book?  She condemns
George Eliot's poetry on the ground that it has no faith in it,
nothing beyond.  Do you imagine she would condemn Burns or Shelley
for that reason?

_Answer_.  I have not read Miss Cleveland's book; but, if the author
condemns the poetry of George Eliot, she has made a mistake.  There
is no poem in our language more beautiful than "The Lovers," and
none loftier or purer than "The Choir Invisible."  There is no
poetry in the "beyond."  The poetry is here--here in this world,
where love is in the heart.  The poetry of the beyond is too far
away, a little too general.  Shelley's "Skylark" was in our sky,
the daisy of Burns grew on our ground, and between that lark and
that daisy is room for all the real poetry of the earth.

--_Evening Record_, Boston, Mass., 1885.
 

INTERVIEWING, POLITICS AND SPIRITUALISM.

_Question_.  What is your opinion of the peculiar institution of
American journalism known as interviewing?

_Answer_.  If the interviewers are fair, if they know how to ask
questions of a public nature, if they remember what is said, or
write it at the time, and if the interviewed knows enough to answer
questions in a way to amuse or instruct the public, then interviewing
is a blessing.  But if the representative of the press asks questions,
either impudent or unimportant, and the answers are like the
questions, then the institution is a failure.  When the journalist
fails to see the man he wishes to interview, or when the man refuses
to be interviewed, and thereupon the aforesaid journalist writes
up an interview, doing the talking for both sides, the institution
is a success.  Such interviews are always interesting, and, as a
rule, the questions are to the point and the answers perfectly
responsive.  There is probably a little too much interviewing, and
to many persons are asked questions upon subjects about which they
know nothing.  Mr. Smith makes some money in stocks or pork, visits
London, and remains in that city for several weeks.  On his return
he is interviewd as to the institutions, laws and customs of the
British Empire.  Of course such an interview is exceedingly
instructive.  Lord Affanaff lands at the dock in North River, is
driven to a hotel in a closed carriage, is interviewed a few minutes
after by a representative of the _Herald_ as to his view of the
great Republic based upon what he has seen.  Such an interview is
also instructive.  Interviews with candidates as to their chances
of election is another favorite way of finding out their honest
opinion, but people who rely on those interviews generally lose
their bets.  The most interesting interviews are generally denied.
I have been expecting to see an interview with the Rev. Dr. Leonard
on the medicinal properties of champagne and toast, or the relation
between old ale and modern theology, and as to whether prohibition
prohibits the Prohibitionists.

_Question_.  Have you ever been misrepresented in interviews?

_Answer_.  Several times.  As a general rule, the clergy have
selected these misrepresentations when answering me.  I never blamed
them, because it is much easier to answer something I did not say.
Most reporters try to give my real words, but it is difficult to
remember.  They try to give the substance, and in that way change
or destroy the sense.  You remember the Frenchman who translated
Shakespeare's great line in Macbeth--"Out, brief candle!"--into
"Short candle, go out!."  Another man, trying to give the last
words of Webster--"I still live"--said "I aint dead yit."  So that
when they try to do their best they often make mistakes.  Now and
then interviews appear not one word of which I ever said, and
sometimes when I really had an interview, another one has appeared.
But generally the reporters treat me well, and most of them succeed
in telling about what I said.  Personally I have no cause for
complaint.

_Question_.  What do you think of the administration of President
Cleveland?

_Answer_.  I know but very little about it.  I suppose that he is
doing the best he can.  He appears to be carrying out in good faith
the principles laid down in the platform on which he was elected.
He is having a hard road to travel.  To satisfy an old Democrat
and a new mugwump is a difficult job.  Cleveland appears to be the
owner of himself--appears to be a man of great firmness and force
of character.  The best thing that I have heard about him is that
he went fishing on Sunday.  We have had so much mock morality, dude
deportment and hypocritical respectability in public office, that
a man with courage enough to enjoy himself on Sunday is a refreshing
and healthy example.  All things considered I do not see but that
Cleveland is doing well enough.  The attitude of the administration
toward the colored people is manly and fair so far as I can see.

_Question_.  Are you still a Republican in political belief?

_Answer_.  I believe that this is a Nation.  I believe in the
equality of all men before the law, irrespective of race, religion
or color.  I believe that there should be a dollar's worth of silver
in a silver dollar.  I believe in a free ballot and a fair count.
I believe in protecting those industries, and those only, that need
protection.  I believe in unrestricted coinage of gold and silver.
I believe in the rights of the State, the rights of the citizen,
and the sovereignty of the Nation.  I believe in good times, good
health, good crops, good prices, good wages, good food, good clothes
and in the absolute and unqualified liberty of thought.  If such
belief makes a Republican, than that is what I am.

_Question_.  Do you approve of John Sherman's policy in the present
campaign with reference to the bloody shirt, which reports of his
speeches show that he is waving?

_Answer_.  I have not read Senator Sherman's speech.  It seems to
me that there is a better feeling between the North and South than
ever before--better than at any time since the Revolutionary war.
I believe in cultivating that feeling, and in doing and saying what
we can to contribute to its growth.  We have hated long enough and
fought enough.  The colored people never have been well treated
but they are being better treated now than ever before.  It takes
a long time to do away with prejudices that were based upon religion
and rascality--that is to say, inspiration and interest.  We must
remember that slavery was the crime of the whole country.  Now, if
Senator Sherman has made a speech calculated to excite the hatreds
and prejudices of the North and South, I think that he has made a
mistake.  I do not say that he has made such a speech, because I
have not read it.  The war is over--it ended at Appomattox.  Let
us hope that the bitterness born of the conflict died out forever
at Riverside.  The people are tired almost to death of the old
speeches.  They have been worn out and patched, and even the patches
are threadbare.  The Supreme Court decided the Civil Rights Bill
to be unconstitutional, and the Republican party submitted.  I
regarded the decision as monstrous, but the Republican party when
in power said nothing and did nothing.  I most sincerely hope that
the Democratic party will protect the colored people at least as
well as we did when we were in power.  But I am out of politics
and intend to keep politics out of me.

_Question_.  We have been having the periodical revival of interest
in Spiritualism.  What do you think of "Spiritualism," as it is
popularly termed?

_Answer_.  I do not believe in the supernatural.  One who does not
believe in gods would hardly believe in ghosts.  I am not a believer
in any of the "wonders" and "miracles" whether ancient or modern.
There may be spirits, but I do not believe there are.  They may
communicate with some people, but thus far they have been successful
in avoiding me.  Of course, I know nothing for certain on the
subject.  I know a great many excellent people who are thoroughly
convinced of the truth of Spiritualism.  Christians laugh at the
"miracles" to-day, attested by folks they know, but believe the
miracles of long ago, attested by folks that they did not know.
This is one of the contradictions in human nature.  Most people
are willing to believe that wonderful things happened long ago and
will happen again in the far future; with them the present is the
only time in which nature behaves herself with becoming sobriety.

In old times nature did all kinds of juggling tricks, and after a
long while will do some more, but now she is attending strictly to
business, depending upon cause and effect.

_Question_.  Who, in your opinion, is the greatest leader of the
"opposition" yclept the Christian religion?

_Answer_.  I suppose that Mr. Beecher is the greatest man in the
pulpit, but he thinks more of Darwin than he does of David and has
an idea that the Old Testament is just a little too old.  He has
put evolution in the place of the atonement--has thrown away the
Garden of Eden, snake, apples and all, and is endeavoring to save
enough of the orthodox wreck to make a raft.  I know of no other
genius in the pulpit.  There are plenty of theological doctors and
bishops and all kinds of titled humility in the sacred profession,
but men of genius are scarce.  All the ministers, except Messrs.
Moody and Jones, are busy explaining away the contradiction between
inspiration and demonstration.

_Question_.  What books would you recommend for the perusal of a
young man of limited time and culture with reference to helping
him in the development of intellect and good character?

_Answer_.  The works of Darwin, Ernst Haeckel, Draper's "Intellectual
Development of Europe," Buckle's "History of Civilization in
England," Lecky's "History of European Morals," Voltaire's
"Philosophical Dictionary," Buechner's "Force and Matter," "The
History of the Christian Religion" by Waite; Paine's "Age of Reason,"
D'Holbach's "System of Nature," and, above all, Shakespeare.  Do
not forget Burns, Shelley, Dickens and Hugo.

_Question_.  Will you lecture the coming winter?

_Answer_.  Yes, about the same as usual.  Woe is me if I preach
not my gospel.

_Question_.  Have you been invited to lecture in Europe?  If so do
you intend to accept the "call"?

_Answer_.  Yes, often.  The probability is that I shall go to
England and Australia.  I have not only had invitations but most
excellent offers from both countries.  There is, however, plenty
to do here.  This is the best country in the world and our people
are eager to hear the other side.

The old kind of preaching is getting superannuated.  It lags
superfluous in the pulpit.  Our people are outgrowing the cruelties
and absurdities of the ancient Jews.  The idea of hell has become
shocking and vulgar.  Eternal punishment is eternal injustice.  It
is infinitely infamous.  Most ministers are ashamed to preach the
doctrine, and the congregations are ashamed to hear it preached.
It is the essence of savagery.

--_Plain Dealer_, Cincinnati, Ohio, September 5, 1885.
 

MY BELIEF.

_Question_.  It is said that in the past four or five years you
have changed or modified your views upon the subject of religion;
is this so?

_Answer_.  It is not so.  The only change, if that can be called
a change, is, that I am more perfectly satisfied that I am right--
satisfied that what is called orthodox religion is a simple
fabrication of mistaken men; satisfied that there is no such thing
as an inspired book and never will be; satisfied that a miracle
never was and never will be performed; satisfied that no human
being knows whether there is a God or not, whether there is another
life or not; satisfied that the scheme of atonement is a mistake,
that the innocent cannot, by suffering for the guilty, atone for
the guilt; satisfied that the doctrine that salvation depends on
belief, is cruel and absurd; satisfied that the doctrine of eternal
punishment is infamously false; satisfied that superstition is of
no use to the human race; satisfied that humanity is the only true
and real religion.

No, I have not modified my views.  I detect new absurdities every
day in the popular belief.  Every day the whole thing becomes more
and more absurd.  Of course there are hundreds and thousands of
most excellent people who believe in orthodox religion; people for
whose good qualities I have the greatest respect; people who have
good ideas on most other subjects; good citizens, good fathers,
husbands, wives and children--good in spite of their religion.  I
do not attack people.  I attack the mistakes of people.  Orthodoxy
is getting weaker every day.

_Question_.  Do you believe in the existence of a Supreme Being?

_Answer_.  I do not believe in any Supreme personality or in any
Supreme Being who made the universe and governs nature.  I do not
say that there is no such Being--all I say is that I do not believe
that such a Being exists.  I know nothing on the subject, except
that I know that I do not know and that nobody else knows.  But if
there is such a Being, he certainly never wrote the Old Testament.
You will understand my position.  I do not say that a Supreme Being
does not exist, but I do say that I do not believe such a Being
exists.  The universe--embracing all that is--all atoms, all stars,
each grain of sand and all the constellations, each thought and
dream of animal and man, all matter and all force, all doubt and
all belief, all virtue and all crime, all joy and all pain, all
growth and all decay--is all there is.  It does not act because it
is moved from without.  It acts from within.  It is actor and
subject, means and end.

It is infinite; the infinite could not have been created.  It is
indestructible and that which cannot be destroyed was not created.
I am a Pantheist.

_Question_.  Don't you think the belief of the Agnostic is more
satisfactory to the believer than that of the Atheist?

_Answer_.  There is no difference.  The Agnostic is an Atheist.
The Atheist is an Agnostic.  The Agnostic says:  "I do not know,
but I do not believe there is any God."  The Atheist says the same.
The orthodox Christian says he knows there is a God; but we know
that he does not know.  He simply believes.  He cannot know.  The
Atheist cannot know that God does not exist.

_Question_.  Haven't you just the faintest glimmer of a hope that
in some future state you will meet and be reunited to those who
are dear to you in this?

_Answer_.  I have no particular desire to be destroyed.  I am
willing to go to heaven if there be such a place, and enjoy myself
for ever and ever.  It would give me infinite satisfaction to know
that all mankind are to be happy forever.  Infidels love their
wives and children as well as Christians do theirs.  I have never
said a word against heaven--never said a word against the idea of
immortality.  On the contrary, I have said all I could truthfully
say in favor of the idea that we shall live again.  I most sincerely
hope that there is another world, better than this, where all the
broken ties of love will be united.  It is the other place I have
been fighting.  Better that all of us should sleep the sleep of
death forever than that some should suffer pain forever.  If in
order to have a heaven there must be a hell, then I say away with
them both.  My doctrine puts the bow of hope over every grave; my
doctrine takes from every mother's heart the fear of hell.  No good
man would enjoy himself in heaven with his friends in hell.  No
good God could enjoy himself in heaven with millions of his poor,
helpless mistakes in hell.  The orthodox idea of heaven--with God
an eternal inquisitor, a few heartless angels and some redeemed
orthodox, all enjoying themselves, while the vast multitude will
weep in the rayless gloom of God's eternal dungeon--is not calculated
to make man good or happy.  I am doing what I can to civilize the
churches, humanize the preachers and get the fear of hell out of
the human heart.  In this business I am meeting with great success.

--_Philadelphia Times_, September 25, 1885.
 

SOME LIVE TOPICS.

_Question_.  Shall you attend the Albany Freethought Convention?

_Answer_.  I have agreed to be present not only, but to address
the convention, on Sunday, the 13th of September.  I am greatly
gratified to know that the interest in the question of intellectual
liberty is growing from year to year.  Everywhere I go it seems to
be the topic of conversation.  No matter upon what subject people
begin to talk, in a little while the discussion takes a religious
turn, and people who a few moments before had not the slightest
thought of saying a word about the churches, or about the Bible,
are giving their opinions in full.  I hear discussions of this kind
in all the public conveyances, at the hotels, on the piazzas at
the seaside--and they are not discussions in which I take any part,
because I rarely say anything upon these questions except in public,
unless I am directly addressed.

There is a general feeling that the church has ruled the world long
enough.  People are beginning to see that no amount of eloquence,
or faith, or erudition, or authority, can make the records of
barbarism satisfactory to the heart and brain of this century.
They have also found that a falsehood in Hebrew in no more credible
than in plain English.  People at last are beginning to be satisfied
that cruel laws were never good laws, no matter whether inspired
or uninspired.  The Christian religion, like every other religion
depending upon inspired writings, is wrecked upon the facts of
nature.  So long as inspired writers confined themselves to the
supernatural world; so long as they talked about angels and Gods
and heavens and hells; so long as they described only things that
man has never seen, and never will see, they were safe, not from
contradiction, but from demonstration.  But these writings had to
have a foundation, even for their falsehoods, and that foundation
was in Nature.  The foundation had to be something about which
somebody knew something, or supposed they knew something.  They
told something about this world that agreed with the then general
opinion.  Had these inspired writers told the truth about Nature--
had they said that the world revolved on its axis, and made a
circuit about the sun--they could have gained no credence for their
statements about other worlds.  They were forced to agree with
their contemporaries about this world, and there is where they made
the fundamental mistake.  Having grown in knowledge, the world has
discovered that these inspired men knew nothing about this earth;
that the inspired books are filled with mistakes--not only mistakes
that we can contradict, but mistakes that we can demonstrate to be
mistakes.  Had they told the truth in their day, about this earth,
they would not have been believed about other worlds, because their
contemporaries would have used their own knowledge about this world
to test the knowledge of these inspired men.  We pursue the same
course; and what we know about this world we use as the standard,
and by that standard we have found that the inspired men knew
nothing about Nature as it is.  Finding that they were mistaken
about this world, we have no confidence in what they have said
about another.  Every religion has had its philosophy about this
world, and every one has been mistaken.  As education becomes
general, as scientific modes are adopted, this will become clearer
and clearer, until "ignorant as inspiration" will be a comparison.

_Question_.  Have you seen the memorial to the New York Legislature,
to be presented this winter, asking for the repeal of such laws as
practically unite church and state?

_Answer_.  I have seen a memorial asking that church property be
taxed like other property; that no more money should be appropriated
from the public treasury for the support of institutions managed
by and in the interest of sectarian denominations; for the repeal
of all laws compelling the observance of Sunday as a religious day.
Such memorials ought to be addressed to the Legislatures of all
the States.  The money of the public should only be used for the
benefit of the public.  Public money should not be used for what
a few gentlemen think is for the benefit of the public.  Personally,
I think it would be for the benefit of the public to have Infidel
or scientific--which is the same thing--lectures delivered in every
town, in every State, on every Sunday; but knowing that a great
many men disagree with me on this point, I do not claim that such
lectures ought to be paid for with public money.  The Methodist
Church ought not to be sustained by taxation, nor the Catholic,
nor any other church.  To relieve their property from taxation is
to appropriate money, to the extent of that tax, for the support
of that church.  Whenever a burden is lifted from one piece of
property, it is distributed over the rest of the property of the
State, and to release one kind of property is to increase the tax
on all other kinds.

There was a time when people really supposed the churches were
saving souls from the eternal wrath of a God of infinite love.
Being engaged in such a philanthropic work, and at the time nobody
having the courage to deny it--the church being all-powerful--all
other property was taxed to support the church; but now the more
civilized part of the community, being satisfied that a God of
infinite love will not be eternally unjust, feel as though the
church should support herself.  To exempt the church from taxation
is to pay a part of the priest's salary.  The Catholic now objects
to being taxed to support a school in which his religion is not
taught.  He is not satisfied with the school that says nothing on
the subject of religion.  He insists that it is an outrage to tax
him to support a school where the teacher simply teaches what he
knows.  And yet this same Catholic wants his church exempted from
taxation, and the tax of an Atheist or of a Jew increased, when he
teaches in his untaxed church that the Atheist and Jew will both
be eternally damned!  Is it possible for impudence to go further?

I insist that no religion should be taught in any school supported
by public money; and by religion I mean superstition.  Only that
should be taught in a school that somebody can learn and that
somebody can know.  In my judgment, every church should be taxed
precisely the same as other property.  The church may claim that
it is one of the instruments of civilization and therefore should
be exempt.  If you exempt that which is useful, you exempt every
trade and every profession.  In my judgment, theatres have done
more to civilize mankind than churches; that is to say, theatres
have done something to civilize mankind--churches nothing.  The
effect of all superstition has been to render men barbarous.  I do
not believe in the civilizing effects of falsehood.

There was a time when ministers were supposed to be in the employ
of God, and it was thought that God selected them with great care
--that their profession had something sacred about it.  These ideas
are no longer entertained by sensible people.  Ministers should be
paid like other professional men, and those who like their preaching
should pay for the preach.  They should depend, as actors do, upon
their popularity, upon the amount of sense, or nonsense, that they
have for sale.  They should depend upon the market like other
people, and if people do not want to hear sermons badly enough to
build churches and pay for them, and pay the taxes on them, and
hire the preacher, let the money be diverted to some other use.
The pulpit should no longer be a pauper.  I do not believe in
carrying on any business with the contribution box.  All the
sectarian institutions ought to support themselves.  These should
be no Methodist or Catholic or Presbyterian hospitals or orphan
asylums.  All these should be supported by the State.  There is no
such thing as Catholic charity, or Methodist charity.  Charity
belongs to humanity, not to any particular form of faith or religion.
You will find as charitable people who never heard of religion, as
you can find in the church.  The State should provide for those
who ought to be provided for.  A few Methodists beg of everybody
they meet--send women with subscription papers, asking money from
all classes of people, and nearly everybody gives something from
politeness, or to keep from being annoyed; and when the institution
is finished, it is pointed at as the result of Methodism.