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Compiled by Bill Hillman
FLASH. . . Editor and Webmaster: Bill Hillman:


Liberator B-24d
Liberator B-24d
Range: 2850 miles
Bomb Load: 8000 pounds
Maximum Speed: 303 mph
Ceiling: 32000 feet
Production of the Liberator was the highest of any 
bomber in the USA: 18,188 models. 
1694 in various versions were ordered by the RCAF.

Northern Saskatchewan Branch

On June 18th, 21 members of the Ex A/G's Ass'n gathered at the RCAF Ass'n Lynx Wing and enjoyed a nice lunch served by the workers at the Lynx Wing.  Our finances continue in good shape under the careful attention given by Treasurer Doug Warren.

We will be meeting on the 3rd Monday in July at the usual Lynx Wing spot at noon hour; visitors are welcome.

This is another experience of C.A. "Smokey" Robson

On the 12th of October 1941, our crew under the leadership of Sgt. Bill Stewart, attacked Nuremberg.  It was an 8 hour and 40 minute mission.

Upon our return, after crossing the French coast, to come up into East Anglia, we were diverted to RAF Station Abingdon.

The initial reaction of our captain, Sgt. Stewart, was to ask the wireless operator air gunner for a bearing on Abingdon; all the aircraft that were diverted to Abingdon were similarly trying to get bearings on Abingdon.

Our fuel was getting low and our captain, Sgt. Stewart, felt that unless we could find a spot that was open to land, that we may have to put the aircraft down in a field.

Talking about putting the aircraft down in the field, we came across what appeared to be a stream flowing through a field and our captain, Sgt. Stewart, made a decision that he was going to land in that field beside the stream.

As we got lower and closer to the so called field, we discovered that the stream was actually camouflage painted on the runway and we later found out we had landed at Royal Airforce Station Northholt which is within the limits of the city of London.

When we got out of our aircraft all we could hear was a foreign language and the captain asked the front gunner if he was accurate in his pinpoint that we had received when we came out of the French Coast, and of course, he said "he was".

We thought we might still be in Germany or God knows where and then we discovered that at Northholt in the city of London, there were three Polish fighter squadrons.  This is where we had landed, at the Northholt Airport with three Polish fighter squadrons at that airport and this was the foreign language we heard.

We all were escorted to the lounge in the Sergeants Mess and had a bit of sleep and the got up the next morning and took off from Northholt and proceeded to return to Mildenhall

Manitoba  Branch

Recently we gave donations to the following:

1. Air Cadet League of Canada (Manitoba) Inc.  The money will be used to assist the League attain their goal of providing an opportunity for each Air Cadet to have a Familiarization flight in a Glider.

2. Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum Inc., Brandon, MB in appreciation and to help offset costs in publishing SHORT BURSTS on the Internet and assist in keeping the Museum going.

At our 1994 Reunion I met Len Isaacson of Lethbridge, AB who, at the age of 84, dances at the R.C. Legion every Friday night.  He sent me a letter in June 2001 which mentions his experience with German Night Fighter Planes (NACHTJAGD) equipped with CHRAGE MUSIK.  This article will be included in the first available issue of our Monthly Newsletter - SHORT BURSTS .

Earl Hiscox reports that he had the Canadian and Air Force flags proudly flying from his Short Wave Antenna on Canada Day.  Good Show, Earl - we must keep the old flag flying!

We continue to hold a monthly meeting every second Thursday of the month at noon for those able and willing to attend.  No formality - just an opportunity for lunch, fun and comradship,  Attendance varies  from 4 to 15 including spouse/partners.

On July 12th we will be visiting Les & Leta Sundell at their country abode in Sanford, MB for a Barbeque (or a Barley as the Aussies say).

During the Reunion 2000 in Edmonton, I was talking to two of our members from British Columbia.  It turned out they were members of a Lion's Club in that Province (a great international service organization to which I also belong in Winnipeg).  A practice many Lion's take part in is the trading of Club Pins.  They each gave me one of theirs.  I did not have any with me but promised to send them one when I returned home.  I have lost/missplaced their names and address.  HELP!!!  I can't remember their names - I think they were from Vancouver Island.  I'd like to keep my promise.  Any help will be appreciated.  Thanks.

The Manitoba AG/WAG's send GREETINGS to their comrades everywhere

Howard Elliott

Southern Ontario Branch

Apropos your article in April issue of Short Bursts re: gunners who flew in Stirlings.

One of our members, namely Charlie Randall, did all his ops in Stirlings I  III  and IVs as a tail gunner in 190 Squadron, 38 Group.  These aircraft had the mid-upper turret removed and were used to drop supplies to the underground in Norway, France and Holland.

Paratroopers were also dropped at various times, and gliders, mostly Horsas, were towed to drop areas. On September 18/44 gliders were towed to Arnhem from Fairford.   This crew dropped paniers containing knock down motor cycles, machine guns and ammunition on September 20th.

They were slated to go again on September 22 but the operation was scrubbed due to lack of serviceable aircraft.

On the previous day the squadron dispatched 10 aircraft and only three returned.  Losses were also sustained on previous days.  In March 1945 gliders were also dropped during the Crossing of the Rhine from their new location at Great Dunmow, Essex.

At wars end the squadron flew the 1st Airborne Division to Oslo to accept the German surrender of Norway. Charlie vividly remembers their first landing between rows and rows of parked Junkers 88's and Focke-Wulf 190s. They also flew plane loads of petrol to Brussels and returned with ex POWs.

(Submitted from the Toronto Chapter as relayed by Charles (Charlie) Randall, AG 190 Squadron 38 Group)

Northern Alberta Branch

Evening John.  I hope your "wound" is much better and that you will be back to normal soon.  I have a bit of news for Shortbursts. At our July meeting it was decided that we should send a donation of $200 to the Edmonton Police Helicopter Fund.  The EPS have been trying to get a helicopter for some time but City Council has, as usual, been diddling about so someone started a fund to finance the deal. They have raised almost the 1 million dollars that they require.

At the same meeting it was decided that we would continue to meet at the Jasper Place Legion and we will change our meeting day from the third Thursday to the first Thursday of each month.

Ted Hackett

LAGIMODIERE, A. Mbr #0293, WINNIPEG, MB:  After a lengthy illness, Andy passed away peacefully on May 23/01 at the Deer Lodge Centre - age 81.  Andy joined the RCAF in 1941 - R186806 and received Air Gunner training at Mont Joli.  He served overseas with #432 Sqdn in 6 Group, completing a Tour of 35 Trips.  Andy was a good friend of our President Doug Penny, as you will read in his report elsewhere in this Issue.

SHARP, D. A. MBR. #0661, BARRHEAD, AB:  Don passed away June 16/2001.  He was predeceased by his wife Patricia  He joined the RCAF November 30/41 and did his Manning Depot at #3 at that location.  He attended #3 W/S in Winnipeg and graduated as a WAG from #2 B/G, Mossbank.  Additional training at #20 OTU Milltown, Scotland and #1665 HCU Ricall.  Operations with #158 RAF Squadron where he completed his tour.

Note to Ted Hackett, Edmonton: Obituary for #1204, Richard Bell appeared in MAY 2001 ISSUE of SHORT BURSTS.

Doug Penny

I would like to thank Charlie Yule  and John Moyles for their continued interest in the Ex-Air Gunners Association. During my time as the National President, 1990- to 2000, it was an honour and pleasure to work with these two men, plus all Directors from across Canada. It gave me a lot of  satisfaction to be able to put something back to the members former and present. It was the wish of the members at our final reunion in Edmonton 2000, that we keep information available to them. With the help of John and Charlie, plus input from our members, and the expertise of our volunteer Webmasters, Bill and Sue-On Hillman from the Brandon Museum, the wishes of our members have been fulfilled. Someone once told me the Ex-AG Association was a class act.We hope this was true. We have had, over the years, a great deal of input from members all over the world. Thank you again!

Sadly, some of our members have passed on since Edmonton 2000. One person I remember from Squadron days was Andy Lagimodiere from Winnipeg who recently died  after as long illness. We were on 432 Squadron, North Yorks, in early 1944. I met Andy when my skipper, “Pete” Pettit, and crew came from 420 Squadron to Eastmoor. Pete was a Canadian starting his second tour. When Andy and I would meet at AG and Wartrime Air Crew reunions, we would hoist a pint or three and talk about old times.We would talk about the trip to Nurnberg. A cold billiant moonlit night with lots of action in the skies. The reported losses from Bomber Command ranged from 96 to 104 Heavies. It was my longest Op, about 8 hrs. and 25 min. The other awe enspiring trip was on D Day morning, before the boys landed at Normandy. We could see the shipping in the Channel, large destroyers firing rockets and other heavy guns dropping shells on the French coast. The sky was full of aircraft, mostly ours, and the sun was just coming up. Of course, this was June 6, 1944.

At the end of June Andy contracted mumps and was grounded.. His pilot, Walt Fernyhough, picked up the Gunnery Leader, A.J. Williams, RAF, as his spare gunner. They went missing June 29th. and Andy was a spare gunner from then on.

We were on leave one time in early June ’44 and Andy met another Winnipeg lad, Andy Mynarski VC. Andy Mynarski was on 419 Squadron and went missing on a raid on June 13, 1944.

Memories we will all cherish.  Good health to all.
Doug Penny, Calgary.
Doug Penny
Doug Penny
National President ~ 1990-2000
This was Doug when he could still hoist one or three!

Ray Stoy

I'm still enjoying the internet versions.  In the current June issue my e-mail address was not with my name and address.   To date I have not had a single inquirey about my prints,  where as when information was printed in the earlier printed Short Bursts I would have 5 or 6 each time there was copy in print.  I can assume that it's due to the lack of information, such as a list of aircraft available, size matted print 20" x 14.5" for $30us. plus $5.50 us shipping.  I may be wrong but I don't think so.  I do appreciate your printing the photos etc. I can send some copy if that would help.

I have been thinking about the Halifax Mk. 4 at Marston Moor.  I was stationed there flying Halifax Mk. 3 and the more that I think about the stories about the Mk. 4 the more I find them very, very hard to believe. The station wasn't so large that you could hide a Squadron of four motor aircraft.  Also in the mess hall and around the bar I'm sure I would have noticed a strange brevy such as stoker AG, it was a very intersting story to read and if it was factual the amount of Oxygen needed to keep the
coal fire burning would be very large indeed.  In any case in trying to wrack my brain for details of Marston Moor and what we did while we were stationed there, I was brought to remember that  shortly after arriving at Marston Moor from Acaster Malvis our skipper was promoted to WO1 and need an officers uniform.   All 7 of the crew were given 10 days leave so he could go to London to have the uniform made.  The 6 Canadians all left for London to stay at the Canadian Legion Hotel at Russel Square.  Our enginer was English and in the RAF so he just went home, near London. The cost for the hotel was 2 and 6 for bed & breakfast.  We spent much of our time at Bars around town and at tea dances.  After 10 days we had spent just about all of our money we took the train back to Marston Moor.  When we arrived at the gate the guard said the station had been closed by the MO due to malnutrition and lack of coal.  We were given a train pass back to London where we went to the Canadian Legion Hotel in Russel Square.  Next day we went to the RCAF in London to see if we could be paid, they said your attached to the RAF and they are the ones to pay you.  We then went to the RAF headquarters in London and they said " you are Canadians, you have to get paid by the paymaster at your station"  We went back to the Canadian Legion hotel and they said why don't you go to see Watney Brewery at Victoria Station, they are always looking for help since everyone is in the service or have better jobs.  We went to the Brewery, a 2pence ride on the tube,  we 6 Canadians we hired on the spot for 14 and 6 a day, with a hot lunch, some kind of gruel and bread, better than we were gettin back at Marston Moor.  We had all the beer we could drink, without our boss seeing, and we worked in our uniforms, rolling empty beer kegs around from one building where they were washed, across the court yard with horse manure every where, the barrels had 2 open holes so I suspect that the beer would have some horse flavor after they were filled.  We had a good time as 14 and six was just for supper and some more beer at night,  Thats about all I can remember of Marston Moor and after that we were stationed at Wolfox Lodge, near Oakham, Rutland to fly Lancasters.
Cheers  Ray Stoy

{Ed. The Liberator at the top of this page is one of Ray’s paintings.
If you are interested in aquiring one of Ray’s prints contact him at:
7728 U.S. Open Loop, Bradenton, FL 34202 U.S.A.
Ph: (941)907-6077  Email  )

Roy Stoy
Roy Stoy ~ Florida
At the Edmonton 2000 Reunion

Len Isaacson

We had dropped our bombs on a synthetic-oil plant in Gelsenkirchen, Germany the night of June 12/13, 1944 and were headed for base.  In the tail gun turret I was searching in the dark for any enemy fighters who might be following us out of the target area.  Suddenly I heard cannons barking loudly and saw lights flashing directly below.  What the hell was that?  I didn’t see the fighter – just the flashing.  We took evasive action and that was it.

At base the pilot told me he saw tracers streaking up in front of him at a steep angle.  I wondered how a night fighter could be so very close under our Lanc and yet be able to fire upwards at about 70 degree angle.  At that time we didn’t know about ‘Schrage Musik’ – two upward firing cannons fitted in the rear cockpit of a Messerschmitt 110.  Lucky for us the German pilot sneaked a bit too far forward and missed.  According to ‘Bomber Command War Diaries’ the first time the Luftwaffe used ‘Schrage Musik’ was during the bombing of Peenemunde, August 17/18, 1943 and are believed to have shot down six bombers.  I completed my tour of 31 Operatons on August 30, 1944 still wondering – ‘What the hell was that?’

In the Airmail section of the Winter 2000 issue of ‘Airforce’ I see that J. McLean and a group of 36 Air-gunners, arrived in England in June 1944 and were sent directly into training and on to a squadron the first week in August 1944.  McLean states: “This quick trip to squadron was necessitated so we could man the newly installed Ventral Gun Position on the Hallies to combat Schrage Musik…”.  Since Bomber Command knew about the weapon in June, and perhaps earlier, I wonder why all squadron were not alerted and when were they alerted.  I would like to hear from anyone who had any experience with those cannons, or any information you can give me.

Leonard J. Isaacson, 228 Corvette Crescent, Lethbridge, AB  T1J 3X8
May I add, as a Postscript, that even with the noises of the Lancasters, motors and wind, and with my helmet on and earphones over my ears, I very clearly heard the very loud barking of the cannons.  There is no doubt in my mind that it was S.M.

So – I decided to dig deep into the questions about S.M. and pass the info on to my ex-Bomber Command friends who have not heard, even yet, about S.M. and to some who doubt that it was ever in action.  I can understand this, since it seemed to be such a secret.  In all my searching I have found no one who had heard about the S.M. while on squadron.  I have a lot of info about S.M. that my brother found on the Internet.  However, what I have revealed should be evidence enough.

Why were not all squadrons alerted?  Perhaps the best answer I’ve had is from an ex-Navigator from 429 Squadron who completed 32 operations in a Halifax III.  In a letter to me he said, “I’m sure that no historian will ever unearth any document which states the reason for not telling us, nor even one which states that we should not be told.  The secret reason for this lack of information will probably die with the man who made the decision.”

If you are on the Internet just ENTER ‘Schrage Musik’ and see what it comes up with.

Some information from the Internet:

‘SCHRAGE MUSIK’ – a German nickname given to the Nachtjagd ‘Night Fighter Planes’ equipped with two MG ff’s or MG 151/20s 20mm cannons mounted in the cabin or fuselage at a 70-80 angle which were aimed by a second Revi C 12/D or 16B gun sight mounted on the canopy roof.  ‘Schrage Musik’ proved to be lethal and took a fearsome toll of heavy bombers in the night battles.

The following excerpts are from the book ‘The Other Battle – Luftwaffe Night Aces Versus Bomber Command’ published in 1996 by Motorbooks International Publishers & Wholesalers, 729 Prospect Ave., PO Box 1, Oscela, WI 54020 USA:

AUTHOR: Peter Hinchliffe OBE, flew with Bomber Command as a Navigator in 1944 and 1945, during which time he was shot down over Belgium in the course of an operational sortie.  After the War he served as a Fighter Controller, so therefore has professional insight into the problems, practices and techniques of air defense and radar controlled air interception, as well as a detailed understanding of aerial navigation and electronic technology.

On leaving the RAF in 1966 he joined the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London, travelling frequently in Germany.  He numbers among his German acquaintances many wartime nightfighter crewmen, some of whom held positions of considerable eminence in the Luftwaffe, and from them he gained much firsthand material for this book.

Foreword by Marshall of the Royal Air Force Sir Michael Betham GCB CBE DFC AFC, President of the Bomber Command Association, formerly Chief of Air Staff.

Foreword by Oberst a.D. Wolfgang Falck of St. Ulrich a.P. Austria:

I consider this a great honor to have been asked to write a foreword to the book that Peter Hinchliffe has written.  It is a characteristic of this work, in which the author is at pains to give an objective account of the murderous battle between the RAF and the German night fighters sine ira et studio, that he has succeeded in exemplary fashion.  It is surely no easy task to write objectively about a matter in which the youthful elite of two nations were killing each other.

Let us hope that with the publication of this book Peter Hinchliffe will have played a part in ensuring that the generations that follow us will learn from what happened in the past and will look to the future with goodwill and in the knowledge that international problems, no matter what they might be, can no longer be solved by means of force.  It is up to us to make our individual contribution to the creation of a peaceful future.

Junkers  JU 88A-4 was the most widely-used bomber version of this famous a/c.
These are shown during a raid on Britain in 1940

Excerpts from the book:

P127: Equally deadly for attacking bombers in their unprotected belly, were two 30mm MK 108 upward-Pointing cannon (600 rounds per minute each) in a so-called Schrage Musik installation in the fuselage roof, of which we will speak later at great length.

P136: On the German side there was emerging a new weapon which, carried principally by the Ju 88s, would prove to be frighteningly efficient against the RAF heavy bombers.  As is very often the case, it is unclear who first thought of mounting machine guns or cannon on the top surface of a night fighter so that all the pilot had to do was to position his machine under the bomber and then open fire.

P137: The installation attracted the attention of an armaments NCO, Oberfeldwebel Mahler, who built two 22mm Oerlikon MG FF machine-guns into the cabin roof of a Bf110.  Using this do-it-yourself weaponry, Schoenert achieved the first acknowleged Schrage Musik kill in about May 1943.  (emphasis added)

P138: The Schrage Musik cannon fired a lethal mixture of armour-piercing, explosive and incendiary ammunition, and a split-second burst, a single pressure of the thumb on the fire button, was usually sufficient to set the wing ablaze and damage the Stirling, Lancaster, or Halifax beyond hope of recovery.

P139: Most British crews did not know they were in danger from a fighter beneath them until they heard a short series of violent explosions and realized almost simultaneously that their aircraft was on fire.  The fortunate ones had time to bale out; the unfortunate ones had only a few moments to live.  Schrage Musik came into its own with devastating effect during the second half of 1943 and the first half of 1944.  (emphasis added)

Wilhelm Seuss of IV/NJG5 is quoted on P252:  It was Seuss’s second kill, his first with Schrage Musik.  It was, he said, so simple.  He was flying a borrowed aircraft – his own machine had not yet been fitted with the upward-firing cannon – and all he had to do was to slide beneath his victim and aim between the two port engines.

Another quote from Seuss:

P254: My Schrage Musik was out of ammunition, and my funker had to change the drum. It took three or four minutes and I stayed under the Viermot (a four engine aircraft), and he didn’t see me.  Then, just as I fired, he dived to one side and flew through my burst of cannon fire, and he began to burn immediately.

P253: By this period, too, more fighters were carrying SN-2 interception radar, still impervious to Window, and more were armed with the deadly Schrage Musik, the existence of which was still unsuspected by the crews in the heavy bombers – even it seems, by the intelligence officers of the Bomber Command.  (emphasis added)

P263: That night No. 77 Squadron was fortunate, not losing a single machine.  Crews from the squadron did, however, witness the loss of aircraft from other squadrons, albeit unwittingly.  The Operations Record Book for the squadron contains this extract: “Amiens to French coast – only light flak.  Up to twenty searchlights operating in target area.  About ten new ‘scarecrow’ flares reported on route home from France.’  In the later months there had been an increasing number of report of these ‘scarecrows’ from bomber crews, a new phenomenon – violent flaming explosions in the vicinity of the bomber stream.  These were, it was firmly believed, special shells fired by the Germans that were intended to simulate aircraft exploding and so to deter the bomber crews.

The irony is that the Germans had no such devices; what the RAF aircrew were seeing were actual bombers exploding, in all probability victims of night-fighter attacks from below with the so far unsuspected Schrage Musik.  (emphasis added)

The concluding paragraph of the book:

P335: The tumult and the shouting had died, the captains and the kings departed.  History decreed that some departed to glory, acclaim and high office; some to death, some to rejection and comparative oblivion.  And the flyers from both Bomber Command and the Nachtjagd who fought so bitterly against each other, those who survived, departed to begin a new life, each in his own separate way.  As they grow older, perhaps wiser, possibly more compassionate, they will all ask the same question.  Why?  And there is no answer.

From your Editor

First, I want to apologize for being late with the July Page. While engaging in my hobby, wood carving, the knife slipped and I ended up with 7 stitches in my right hand between thumb and forefinger. This makes typing difficult.  (Charlie Yule informed me that monkeys do not use their thumbs!)

Bud and June Crookes, the Editors of the 422 Squadron Web Page have published a book on the squadron on their site.

They have done a bang-up job, check it out.

A little trivia.  Did you know that Bill Hooper, the creator of P/O Prune, was an Air Gunner!
Some administrative type must have had his finger in as Bill was posted to 54 Squadron, an RAF Spitfire outfit. That is why we see Prune walking away from, and falling out of, Spitfires. Hanging around the flights sketching the silk scarf boys, Bill’s cartooning talents were recognized, and he was posted, along with Prune, to HQ in London and attached to the TEE EMM Staff. Later in the war said Admin Type got the finger out and Bill received a posting to the Far East – Burma! However, by that time Bill was indispensable.  Oh yes, the Luftwaffe awarded Prune the Iron Cross for destroying so many allied aircraft!

Hopefully, I will have the stitches out and raring to go, come August. Until then, drop me some copy for the Page.

Keep well,  Cheers,
John Moyles
It was P.O. Prune who reckoned that a good landing was one you could walk away from - Bill Hooper


Regional Meetings

Southern Ontario Chapter
Royal Canadian Legion
Wilson Branch 527
948 Sheppard Avenue West
We meet the first Wednesday of each month at the Legion hall 1:00 pm. 
No meetings July, August, September.
Contact persons: 
Ken Hill  ~  President ~  905.789.1912
Bill Cockburn  ~  Secretary ~  416.492.1024

Location - Royal Canadian Legion Br.#4 St. James Legion.
Date - Second Thursday of each month.
Time - Luncheon meeting (provide your own lunch).
Contact Member - Charlie Yule Ph. (204) 254-6264.

Northern Saskatchewan
Location - Lynx Wing Ave. C North, Saskatoon.
Date - Third Monday of the month.
Time - Luncheon meetings.
Contact Member - C.A. "Smokey" Robson  Ph. (306) 374-0547.

Northern Alberta Branch
Location - Jasper Place Legion , 10220 - 156 St. Edmonton.
Date -  Third Tuesday of each month.
Time - 12:00 hours.
Contact Members - E. H. "Ted" Hackett (780)962-2904 
or Sven Jensen (780)465-7344.

Southern Alberta
Location - Royal Canadian Legion  #264 
Kensington, Calgary
Date: Second Monday of each month.
Time - 11:30 hours.
Contact Member: Dave Biggs Ph: (403)236-7895
or Doug Penny Ph: (403)242-7048.
October meeting time moved to third Monday. 
Also there are no meetings in July and August, however, a Barbecue is usually held  at Larry Robinson's ranch in Okatoks during that time.

British Columbia Branch
We meet on the first Tuesday in 
March, June, September, and December at 11:30 am. 
There will also be special events and meetings throughout the year. 
Our mailing address and meeting place is:
Royal Canadian Legion #83, 
5289 Grimmer St., 
Burnaby, BC. V5H 2H3
Contact Members are - Stan Sullivan (604)277-5641 
and Rod MacDougall (604)515-4280

Members across the Country are encouraged to 
send current information regarding 
regular meeting places, dates, and Contact Members, to
John Moyles
Box 6 
Kenosee Lake 
SK   S0C 2S0 

Members are requested to send their experiences, articles, anecdotes, pictures, etc., to John Moyles and I will forward them to our Web Master in Brandon. Articles and Last Post items will be deleted from the page each month after the designated Member in each region has had an opportunity to copy the material for their Members. Notices of deceased Members are to be sent to Charlie Yule who is still our 'Keeper of the Rolls'. This is your SHORT BURSTS with no printing or mailing costs, and no deadlines! 
We thank our Web Master, Bill Hillman, for his volunteer time and expertise. 

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